[JerRocks2day]

I wasn't sure if this was talked about before in the history of CGR theology, but I thought I'd share this video recording that I found on youtube.

Creflo Dollar's view on tithing

What surprises me is that the congregation actually laughs at this sort of act of violence and take it lightly.

If this isn't proof that this is heresy, which according to my history textbook is defined as a crime against God and humanity, then we have lost our sense of humanity. It's like society has evolved into hate-engulfed pigs that disregard humanity as a joke.

Thoughts on the video?

[thesteve]

They might not be coming out and saying it, but I don't think extremism is uncommon in churches like this. I've heard multiple reports of churches that require members to submit their W-2s to the church accountant so the leaders can make sure they're giving at least 10%.

[Ted Logan]

I find it fascinating that he emphasizes that we don't stone people because we're "under the blood of Jesus," implying that stoning is an Old Covenant punishment for offenses, and we're under a better Covenant. But then he turns to tithing, which is another Old Covenant phenomenon.

Taking it a bit further, there were actually three tithes in the Old Testament and there are none in the New. The first was to be given to the Levites; the second (which did not occur every year) was taken to Jerusalem; the third was eaten by the person with the Levites and the poor sojourning with them. Notice, however, that our pastors aren't Levites. Our churches aren't Temples. As far as I can figure out, the "Christian tithe" makes no Biblical sense AT ALL.

[athanatos]

Aaron:
I've heard it said that it stands today because it was back in Abraham's day (offering a 10th to Melchizedek), prior to the Mosiac law. Christ as our king of righteousness (malchi-zedek). Interesting also that Melchizedek was a priest and gave Abraham bread and wine.

[Ted Logan]

I've heard that too, but a few related points worth mentioning:

1) Where in Scripture are we given the hermeneutical tools to determine how Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek pertains to us today? You can't just say, "Abraham tithed to Melchizedek, and therefore Christians should give 10% of their pre-tax income to their local church." There are SO many leaps between the premise and the conclusion.
2) The Mosaic tithes were commanded. Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek occurs in a narrative with no clear ethical implications. You can't take a narrative and make a law out of it without clear warrant.
3) What did Abraham tithe to Melchizedek? It appears to be 1/10 of the spoils of war. So... how does that translate to giving a tenth of one's paycheck?

[Ridley's Own]

Wait... "Becomes" sick, twisted and inhumane?

[nanou912]

I feel this relation with money so frightening. They don't love God, they only love dollars. They cannot say they are christian : they use the Christ like a pretext for their sect...

I think so we have to pray they, and for their salvation...

About the Bible, Jesus does'nt throw back money, but He prevents us : we have to chose our priorities !
"pay Caesar what belongs to Caesar -- and God what belongs to God." (Mt 22, 21)

[Epaphras]

I don't think Christians are required to tithe. I think our obligation is actually higher: to be radically generous. To hold all our possessions and assets so loosely that we would liquidate to meet the needs of our brothers and sisters in Christ, and open-handedly with members of the larger community.

I believe that for the Christian, the question isn't "How much of my money will I give back to God?" but "How much of God's money will I keep for myself?"

[Ted Logan]

The reality is that there are many, many Christians for whom radical generosity will never even approach 10%. In the same way, there were many, many Israelites and sojourners in Israel for whom the tithe was actually a benefit to them. One thing often forgotten in these discussions is that the poor were always meant to be provided for by the tithes.

[zedman]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

Wait... "Becomes" sick, twisted and inhumane?

Kind of what I thought.

I've seen some of these guys in person & spoken with some of them.

I don't know if I should share anything, but much of their conduct is far from gracious.

[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by Ted Logan

The reality is that there are many, many Christians for whom radical generosity will never even approach 10%. In the same way, there were many, many Israelites and sojourners in Israel for whom the tithe was actually a benefit to them. One thing often forgotten in these discussions is that the poor were always meant to be provided for by the tithes.

I should clarify that my post above isn't meant as an appeal for giving to one's local church. Quite the opposite -- I think the Christians who do tithe to their church, out of a sense of duty or obligation (which may or may not be 'cheerful' as the NT demands), stop there, and that is sad because then tithing becomes the end in itself, which it is not (and never was) intended to be.

My wife and I tithe because it serves to train us to become people who give. It is a training exercise for a lifestyle of open-handed generosity. We set aside 10% by defaul, more if we feel led, into a seperate account. Once it's in there, if one of us is led to give extra to our church or to a specific cause, the other person doesn't have veto power. We are members of a church that we are proud to support with our tithe because we know they are good stewards of the resources.

It has been an incredible exercise because my wife is generous by nature, but I'm much more critical, cynical, and miserly. It has really helped me "release" my hold on that money -- indeed, it has exposed how captive I am to money. No Christian in America can say they are immune from getting pulled into the orbit of Mammon. It is the center of our universe (as a wealthy Western nation), the black hole in the center around which all revolves and into which all is consumed. Radical generosity (of which a tithe to your local church is a great way to start and is needed to support the work and ministries of our local churches) is the antidote to this poisonous worldview.

[athanatos]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

No Christian in America can say they are immune from getting pulled into the orbit of Mammon. It is the center of our universe (as a wealthy Western nation), the black hole in the center around which all revolves and into which all is consumed. Radical generosity (of which a tithe to your local church is a great way to start and is needed to support the work and ministries of our local churches) is the antidote to this poisonous worldview.

I love this. Very well said.

[nanou912]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

Radical generosity (of which a tithe to your local church is a great way to start and is needed to support the work and ministries of our local churches) is the antidote to this poisonous worldview.

Yeah, I'm admirative of your testimony. And I totaly agree with your last remark.
We have to exerce this radical generosity, because we cannot be tepid !
We have to exerce this radical generosity, because if we, christian, don't do that, who will do ?
We have to exerce this radical generosity, because we must work for egality beteween people, and for respect of everyone !
We have to exerce this radical generosity, simply because it is our christian vocation to love one another, as Jesus has loved us (cf Jn 13, 34 or Jn 15, 12 !)

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally Posted by thesteve

They might not be coming out and saying it, but I don't think extremism is uncommon in churches like this. I've heard multiple reports of churches that require members to submit their W-2s to the church accountant so the leaders can make sure they're giving at least 10%.

I was in leadership at a church who began doing this. That was obviously before we left. They also had a young married couple counsel us on how to handle our finances and how to run our rental property. It was ludicrous.

Sent from my iPad using CGR Forum

[Random:Dice]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

Wait... "Becomes" sick, twisted and inhumane?

indeed

He's probably a more informative video on the PG...whatever you think of piper


John Piper and the Prosperity Gospel - YouTube