Ubiquity of worship music

bobthecockroach · 11-21-2011, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve

On the one hand, I understand what you're saying from the active/passive standpoint. On the other hand, I don't know if this part, "If Chris Tomlin does it, it's worship music. If no one in the P&W genre does it, it isn't." is that big of a variation from previous generations. I'd guess that for my grandparents, if you swapped in "Bill Gaither" for "Chris Tomlin" or said "If it's in a hymnal..." you'd still be making accurate statements.

Ubiquity may not be new, but it's always a concern because the medium is the message.

The message of our current medium of worship seems to be that worship is about how you respond to something that is happening in front of you more so than how you participate in something.

JimmyYO · 11-21-2011, 01:50 PM

I think it's a huge issue. If these small handful of popular radio friendly artists decide to go the Ray Boltz route we have alot of Christians broadsided by the whirlwind of their actions. Whose to say God doesn't see a difference between Catholics worshiping Saints/buildings/statues and Protestants worshiping those 2 or 3 worship artists. it's a bit of a stretch right now but maybe not in 5 years.... Either way it's cause enough for concern.

dailybeans · 11-21-2011, 03:50 PM

I don't necessarily think that a lot of churches singing the same songs, written by the same people is a bad thing. (I emphasize people because it seems that some people have become disillusioned and think of them as corporate sell outs.)
A song, when sung by different groups of people, say churches, carries with it different connotations and emotional connections; for example, one group of people may not like "In The Secret", while another may find it to be meaningful way that they worship Jesus.

There is something to be said about indigenous worship though. Songs sung out of the house they were born from are my absolute favorite!

Nomes · 11-21-2011, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyYO

I think it's a huge issue. If these small handful of popular radio friendly artists decide to go the Ray Boltz route we have alot of Christians broadsided by the whirlwind of their actions. Whose to say God doesn't see a difference between Catholics worshiping Saints/buildings/statues and Protestants worshiping those 2 or 3 worship artists. it's a bit of a stretch right now but maybe not in 5 years.... Either way it's cause enough for concern.

I think that is an overreaction. When I sing "How Great is our God" I am in NO WAY thinking about Chris Tomlin. When I play "Jesus Saves", Tim Hughes is far from my mind. I don't think people are worshipping these singer/song writers as idols.

It would be very sad indeed if any of these people went off the rails as you have suggested, but that is no reason not to have leaders. When a minister or someone else with a leadership position, or a well known Christian goes off the rails, people are disappointed and hurt. But we are to put our hope in God, not in people. That is the individual's responsibility.

JimmyYO · 11-22-2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomes

I think that is an overreaction. When I sing "How Great is our God" I am in NO WAY thinking about Chris Tomlin. When I play "Jesus Saves", Tim Hughes is far from my mind. I don't think people are worshipping these singer/song writers as idols.

It would be very sad indeed if any of these people went off the rails as you have suggested, but that is no reason not to have leaders. When a minister or someone else with a leadership position, or a well known Christian goes off the rails, people are disappointed and hurt. But we are to put our hope in God, not in people. That is the individual's responsibility.

I agree though what I'm talking about is the difference between a leader and an idol. If my pastor was involved in some scandal I'd be disappointed, reevaluate my life a bit then move on. On the other hand if Billy Graham decided to become a Mormon tomorrow it might rock my world, especially if it's a newer Christian.

It's almost like an indirect worship that you don't even realize until it's too late and that's why Christian music shouldn't be dominated by a handful of guys. Because if one of them falls they take alot more people with them.

**thesteve** · 11-22-2011, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyYO

I agree though what I'm talking about is the difference between a leader and an idol. If my pastor was involved in some scandal I'd be disappointed, reevaluate my life a bit then move on. On the other hand if Billy Graham decided to become a Mormon tomorrow it might rock my world, especially if it's a newer Christian.

It's almost like an indirect worship that you don't even realize until it's too late and that's why Christian music shouldn't be dominated by a handful of guys. Because if one of them falls they take alot more people with them.

I somewhat understand what you're saying, but depending on the circumstances, I really think the fallout is variable. In the case of Ray Boltz the announcement was very public and the reaction was as many expected. In the case of Steve Fee, I don't think many people outside of his church and his most ardent followers know the story behind why he abruptly stopped making music.

TheProdigalModern · 11-22-2011, 07:15 AM

There's a lot to be said for repetition in the formation of worship.

My freshman year in college I was part of a church that hardly ever repeated a hymn, and it was pretty hard to sing along to a new melody every week, even if you could sight read music, when the words are unfamiliar as well. Of course, we were using the Trinity Hymnal, so lots of the songs used the same melody...

**Role Modlin** · 11-22-2011, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomes

I think that is an overreaction. When I sing "How Great is our God" I am in NO WAY thinking about Chris Tomlin. When I play "Jesus Saves", Tim Hughes is far from my mind. I don't think people are worshipping these singer/song writers as idols.

It would be very sad indeed if any of these people went off the rails as you have suggested, but that is no reason not to have leaders. When a minister or someone else with a leadership position, or a well known Christian goes off the rails, people are disappointed and hurt. But we are to put our hope in God, not in people. That is the individual's responsibility.

I still sing a couple Fee songs regardless of what happened with him. I wasn't singing the songs because of him...I sang them because I thought they were relatively good songs.

**Ted Logan** · 11-22-2011, 10:56 AM

I agree with TheProdigalModern, and in response to JimmyYO, first of all, welcome! It's always awesome when members (often long-time members) finally start posting in Theology

Or when the occasional Kentl shows up!

Anyway, JimmyYO, I agree with you that idolatry is a subtle sin that can creep up on us, and we should be on the watch for it in our lives. We should ask the questions you're asking. However, I honestly don't think there's as much idolatry of Chris Tomlin and Matt Redman as you might be seeing in your own experience. Do you mind me asking how old you are? The reason I ask is that I see exactly what you're talking about among high schoolers, college students, and a few young adults. Probably part of this is that adolescence and early adulthood is hero-worship central. But somewhere around 25 or so - or some time after they've been in the workforce for some time, it could be earlier if they don't go to college - people just don't buy the "hero" thing as much anymore.

Now, I admit that's my anecdotal evidence against yours. We could both be wrong

But here's what I think is happening in the wider evangelical Church: Tomlin, Redman, Crowder - these guys are prolific and they "get" the pop music sensibility. Pop music literally fails at being pop music if it doesn't appeal to a wide audience, and in order to do that, it has to require little of the audience. So these guys (and a few others - Hillsong, Casting Crowns, etc.) do that. They make LOTS of music that is easily-accessible. And some of it is very, very good, but more of it is just very, very marketable.

And you know what? I think that's okay. Because most of the people I talk to like Chris Tomlin's music because it's easy to understand, speaks to their desire to worship, and sticks to basic Christian doctrine. Nothing controversial. Jesus is Lord, He died and rose again, I'm a sinner saved by grace, and I can trust Him. They don't even really think about Chris Tomlin except to say, "I loved his last album, so when I hear the new single on KLOVE, I think I'll probably end up buying this album on iTunes, too." If, on the other hand, he came out as gay like Ray Boltz and left his wife (is he married now?), or suddenly started spouting New Age nonsense, I think the vast majority of those people who have really loved his songs so far would abandon his future work instantly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

As for the inherent limitations of latching onto a few artists, the plain fact is that we have to remember that the music we use in Church has to be accessible to our people. If, out of nowhere, we stop singing Chris Tomlin and start singing Indelible Grace just because there's really great theology and beautiful poetry there, we will have missed the boat as musicians in the Church. It isn't our job to forcefully expand our people's musical sensibilities or poetic appreciation. So we do what everyone else does: We sing a hymn or two that they know (at least a little bit) every week or three.

You can also do the following:

1) Pull out 15 GREAT worship songs from the last 30 years (easy to do)
2) Pull out 15 GREAT hymns that are easy to sing (easy to do)
3) Pull out 30 MEDIOCRE modern worship songs and toss them out of your repertoire (maybe a little more difficult)
4) Plug and play, baby.

Since most of us have a rotating repertoire of about 100 songs (a pure guess on my part) that's always changing but changes slowly, this gives you the freedom to make deliberate substitutions and be really strategic about what you force upon your unwitting congregation.

Some suggestions for 1) and 2)

1)
Any praise chorus by Keith Green
Step By Step
Take Me In To the Holy of Holies
Sing Your Praise To the Lord
He Has Made Me Glad
You Are Worthy of My Praise
I Will Call Upon the Lord
I Love You, Lord
He Is Lord

2)
Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing
Amazing Grace
A Mighty Fortress Is Our God
O God, Our Help in Ages Past
Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah
Holy, Holy, Holy
TONS of hymns by Charles Wesley
The Doxology to the tune of "Old 100th"
This Is My Father's World
All Creatures of Our God and King
How Great Thou Art
How Sweet the Name of Jesus Sounds

3) I'll leave to you :-)

Almost Enough · 11-22-2011, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Ubiquity may not be new, but it's always a concern because the medium is the message.

The message of our current medium of worship seems to be that worship is about how you respond to something that is happening in front of you more so than how you participate in something.

This is an interesting concept that I'm going to read more about. It kind of reminds me what I try to remember and to adhere to as a worship leader. I've always viewed worship, both private and corporate, as an fruit offering of what growth you have in your own life, and your own experience with God. I worship the Lord because of who He is, and what He has done, and what I come to understand and hope that He will do. All of these are dependent on my interacting with God in my life, and ministry, and my routine. They aren't dependant on if the worship set brought me to a place that I can worship God. David wrote the psalms in response to his dealings with life and with God, and that comes out in his words. Sometimes, when I read popular corporate worship songs, I wonder what drove them to write the words they wrote. Many times, I feel cheated, as if they were uninspired...basically just random "You are holy"s and "we love You"s thrown together over a powerful melody. I try to compare them to the story behind Amazing Grace, and see where they stand up. Sure, it's easy to write a pop song that contains generic Christian phrases that people can utilize to worship. It sure puts dinner on the table (and then some, probably). But, as Christians, should we endorse that method of praise writing? Mind you, not all modern worship songs are like this, and I'm not claiming that I'm in any position to judge their motives. I think our response to the songs are even more important. I can worship God with generic words because He is actively involved in my life, and there is evidence for that, so I can rejoice in song. Are people worshipping because of that....or are they expecting these worship songs to get them there for them?

Long paragraph is long. I'm on my phone. Deal with it.

funkStrat_97 · 11-22-2011, 03:17 PM

How interesting that we are having this discussion, because I had started a similar thread on another forum (check out Learn Gospel Music - it's a great forum...but moving right along) regarding hymns vs modern praise music. The article that spurred the conversation is 'With Hearts and Minds and Voices' written by John McArthur. Now it is important to keep in mind that McArthur is not talking about a "style" or genre of music, but the theological foundation upon which it is built. Does modern praise and worship music fulfill the mandate given to us in Col. 3:16?

In some regards, I agree with Mr. McArthur. When I hear the term "worship experience", it gives me the impression that it is a manufactured environment in which the emotions of the hearer are manipulated in a way to create the experience of an encounter with God. But emotions alone do not make true worship (and do you really want someone up on a stage manipulating your emotions?). Having said that, I don't think that you can connect to God and not have some feeling involved, but the problem is that you end up with people seeking "that feeling" even more than truly seeking God.

Burk48237 · 12-30-2011, 06:41 PM

I think there is a greater danger from the limitation of sources of worship music in that it becomes formulaic. There is a manipulation that occurs in some worship sets where certain songs at certain times always illicit certain responses. Or doing things in songs like dropping the whole band but the drums, or doing a verse in the middle with the acoustic guitar only. This is fine occasionally but in the case of Crowder or Hillsong it seems to happen almost every tune. In this case I think our worship can sometimes become mob pop emotion play instead of individual responses to the Spirit of God in a corporate setting. In fact I'll go as far as to say I've personally witnessed and participated in it.

The other danger is the creeping mediocrity and lack of creativity I see in our worship music. I don't believe I have ever in thirty plus years of playing in various churches seen such a paucity of creativity, exploration, on musicianship as I have in some of todays worship music. It lacks dynamics, thoughtful chord structures, and many times even good hooks. In other words the craft is marginal at best. Not all of it, but far too much of it falls into this category. Even lyrically it seems to be trite at times.

For instance the tune "Our God is greater," what exactly is the congregation saying? That there are other Gods? That our religion is better, nah-nah-nah? Is it some kind of weird positive confession? And how is that expressing thoughts of thanksgiving or worship? Just a thought?

**thesteve** · 12-30-2011, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burk48237

For instance the tune "Our God is greater," what exactly is the congregation saying? That there are other Gods? That our religion is better, nah-nah-nah? Is it some kind of weird positive confession? And how is that expressing thoughts of thanksgiving or worship? Just a thought?

Psalm 135 seems to be okay with similar expressions.

jthomas1600 · 12-31-2011, 08:17 AM

I'm late to the conversation but I have a couple thoughts:

First of all, I completely agree with bobthecockroach. The best worship experiences I've had have probably been the worst musically. I've always enjoyed worshiping at mens retreats where it's just one guy with a guitar and a group of men pouring their hearts out to God. In my experience the bigger, the better, the louder the band the less the audience participation. Worshiping at a mens retreat is not necessarily better than enjoying good worship music by a good band and letting God speak to your heart: they're just different. Maybe both are needed.

I have a thought that relates to Kentles comment as well. I suspect it's not the hymns that are killing his church but more likely a struggle between two generations. We solved that problem at our church by no longer going to the hymnal (as in "turn in your hymnal to page 233"). We still sing hymns (probably 30+%) but they're presented the same way (on the overhead) and most people don't even know which songs come from the hymnal and which songs may be contemporary songs they're just not familiar with.

BATCHY1978 · 02-23-2012, 07:06 AM

I went to two churches in a town I used to live in......one was baptist.........we used to play most acousticy hillsongs etc and hymns........being a guitarist is was a bit boring........the other church I went to was a little bit more rock.......but still typically hillsongs/vineyard/redmen......etc..............so some friends of mine decided to start up a metal church................this way we got to worship God in a way that was more fun for us.............but the best part is that we pulled heaps of people in from the town who had NEVER stepped in side a church before..............they were drawn to the music they liked.......they wern't concerned about the Godly lyrics........they were more open and impressed by us tattoed......black metal t-shirt guys who spoke about how God loves them as they are........not as they are squeezed into a conformist box that most churches wanted them to fit into............