[engage757]

Caparison Angelus/Caparison TAT II/Flaxwood Aija/ PRS CU24/Others > Mesa Dual Rec

[Rainer.]

I still find it fascinating that churches seem to be the only live venue where it is so commonly insisted that guitars be run direct rather than through amps... Not that there's anything wrong with it, your house, your rules, but it's just an interesting idiosyncrasy that only really pops up in churches and the like...

[jeepnstein]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I still find it fascinating that churches seem to be the only live venue where it is so commonly insisted that guitars be run direct rather than through amps... Not that there's anything wrong with it, your house, your rules, but it's just an interesting idiosyncrasy that only really pops up in churches and the like...

It's about stage volume and overall volume. I know lots of players who would go way way overboard if they were given just a little bit of a chance. You don't have the same problem in bars.

[Giga Hertz]

Originally Posted by jeepnstein

It's about stage volume and overall volume. I know lots of players who would go way way overboard if they were given just a little bit of a chance. You don't have the same problem in bars.

"All the powers of darkness tremble at what they just heard". I know the low D through my bass amp makes the walls tremble at that part.

[pfirst]

Most churches are square boxes that have little or poor accustics and contolling the stage volume is important. Plus the sound people for the most part are just folks with limited training like the rest of us. They just don't have the sensitivity that we guitar players have. The other and most important factor is that guitar Cabs have a poor dispersion of sound. If you are not directly infront of the speaker you are out of the sweet spot. By putting everything through the board those golder guitar tones can be appreciated by all.

Originally Posted by jeepnstein

It's about stage volume and overall volume. I know lots of players who would go way way overboard if they were given just a little bit of a chance. You don't have the same problem in bars.

Maybe it's the alcohol.

[ibanez_dude]

Originally Posted by Clipper

Amp -wise: I concur with 1/2 Fast Player:

I am guitarist and one of the sound-techs in our local House of Prayer. We can not allow guitarists to play though amps UNLESS they line-out into the house system. The sound-tech cannot control the room properly with a "rogue" amp on stage. I surmise most churches with serious stage setups will be similar in their rules.

Playing line-out though your amp allows you to maintain your own personal sound and tone. Lugging the amp all the time is rough. I second the opin on amp simulators, recomending the SansAmp series of whatever flavor you like.

Guitar-wise: Personal choice. From a sound-tech perspective tho.....if you are going to play electric, I'll say this.

An electric guitar with humbuckers is more versatile in this environment. Sounds better in most circumstances. Face it, many if not most of the songs played during a worship set are strummed, the guitarist playing rhythm with a keyboardist and singers. The other predominant (new) sound these days is "shoegaze" or ambient soaking type music Humbuckers are better here. They also sound awesome on lead parts at the flip of a switch. Humbuckers are tone rich and can do it all.

Now single-coils are a different story. They sound great on searing string-bending lead but you don't get to play that a lot usually. I don't mean to be a hater, but I literall cringe when I see someone take a hot looking Strat up on stage. I love Strat's, just not here. Unless the player is very seasoned and has his guitar tone(effects) dialed in really well, the Strat sound like poo when it come time for a good rhythm part. NO tone,very thin sound, usually flat or sharp, twaang,twannng, twwanngg, etc, grrrrrr. With no versatility, you get stuck playing shoegaze all the time and becomes of no value in the mix.Bottom line - most of the time they generally have NO TONE! Blah!

Again, not meant to be a hater, just if you want play a single coil guitar, spend the time to dial in a good rhythm tone with your effects. Good tone meaning : thick, rich, fully saturated, chunky, and tasty.

With ANY guitar choice: MAKE SURE it is properly setup and intonated all over the fretboard, when chording especially.

Most electrics may easily intonate single notes fine at the twelfth fret but will play sharp and sound terrible when playing around the first 5- 7 frets if the action of the neck or if the nut is too high, especially when you rhythm chord.

Follow these tips and your rig will sound good whatever brands you play, the rest of sounding good is up to you.

Remember you are there to play worship from the heart directly to God. He is your audience!

Everyone else in the room is there to witness and add their heart of worship.

Bad tone will wreck that atmosphere for everyone.

I'm sure I'll get some dissenting opins from this but Hey, it's just my 2 cent from the soundboard in the back of the room.

Best,

Bob S.

There are so many things I disagree with in this post that I don't even want to start talking about it

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I still find it fascinating that churches seem to be the only live venue where it is so commonly insisted that guitars be run direct rather than through amps... Not that there's anything wrong with it, your house, your rules, but it's just an interesting idiosyncrasy that only really pops up in churches and the like...

Probably because of a few reasons:
1. there are plenty of ego-and-volume-driven guitarists in the world who have left a bad taste in the mouth (and bad ringing in the ears) of the congregation and/or sound person of many churches.
2. we don't want to upset the blue-hairs with those loud rock and roll amps.
3. some sound people are more clueless than they would like people to know and they don't know how to mix a live band that uses stage amps.
4. many churches get stuck in a "this is THE WAY that we do things here" mentality and it extends to their music/sound/arts ministries. Option B does not exist because they've always done Option A.
5. some churches just do not have the room and/or resources to use live amps. Our downstairs sanctuary is such a room. If we used live amps down there they would have to be baffled/isolated and redirected. It could be done, but it'd be a lot of work. Then we'd need an acoustic drum kit and more monitors and...might as well move upstairs to the big room.

I've had plenty of experience w/ me and my tube amps (w/o direct out, btw) going into a church and having a come-to-Jesus meeting with their resident sound person because he/she is inexperienced with someone with experience who might actually know what they're doing and is very willing to help them and make their job easier. I try and be very matter-of-fact yet very humble with them. To me, it's yet another learning experience for all involved. I don't throw down an ego card at all and most times they're very happy to learn that I'm actually on their 'side'.
A lot of churches need to learn to be flexible to trying Option B.

[ibanez_dude]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Probably because of a few reasons:
1. there are plenty of ego-and-volume-driven guitarists in the world who have left a bad taste in the mouth (and bad ringing in the ears) of the congregation and/or sound person of many churches.
2. we don't want to upset the blue-hairs with those loud rock and roll amps.
3. some sound people are more clueless than they would like people to know and they don't know how to mix a live band that uses stage amps.
4. many churches get stuck in a "this is THE WAY that we do things here" mentality and it extends to their music/sound/arts ministries. Option B does not exist because they've always done Option A.
5. some churches just do not have the room and/or resources to use live amps. Our downstairs sanctuary is such a room. If we used live amps down there they would have to be baffled/isolated and redirected. It could be done, but it'd be a lot of work. Then we'd need an acoustic drum kit and more monitors and...might as well move upstairs to the big room.

I've had plenty of experience w/ me and my tube amps (w/o direct out, btw) going into a church and having a come-to-Jesus meeting with their resident sound person because he/she is inexperienced with someone with experience who might actually know what they're doing and is very willing to help them and make their job easier. I try and be very matter-of-fact yet very humble with them. To me, it's yet another learning experience for all involved. I don't throw down an ego card at all and most times they're very happy to learn that I'm actually on their 'side'.
A lot of churches need to learn to be flexible to trying Option B.

I agree with everything said here, as a guitarist, pro sound tech, and someone who's been involved in church ministry for a while

[Gaetano Paul]

At times I would prefer to go direct at my church because the stage volume/mix is pretty bad. But the floor monitors and acoustics of the place, mixed with no IEM prohibits this, though I have tried multiple times

[to_be_released]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I still find it fascinating that churches seem to be the only live venue where it is so commonly insisted that guitars be run direct rather than through amps... Not that there's anything wrong with it, your house, your rules, but it's just an interesting idiosyncrasy that only really pops up in churches and the like...

I share this fascination. In my experience, I've personally never found going straight into the system as satisfactory as running an amp with a mic in front of it.

Originally Posted by pfirst

Most churches are square boxes that have little or poor accustics and contolling the stage volume is important. Plus the sound people for the most part are just folks with limited training like the rest of us. They just don't have the sensitivity that we guitar players have. The other and most important factor is that guitar Cabs have a poor dispersion of sound. If you are not directly infront of the speaker you are out of the sweet spot. By putting everything through the board those golder guitar tones can be appreciated by all.

I suspect that competency of sound men is a bigger factor than room acoustics for the most part. Perhaps that's linked to the prevalence of plugging straight into the system in so many churches.

I agree that cabs don't always have the greatest dispersion of sound, but this is a good thing. It means I can point my amp just at myself (and thus hear the guitar how I want to) and shove a mic in front of it that can take the "sweet spot" through the system. Then the relatively poor dispersion of sound takes care of keeping stage noise down.

[etechstan]

My church has an old and outdated PA system. I am now at the point where I am putting together my own and using it for the Celebrate Recovery praise team I belong to. This way everything can go through the PA and a balance can be achieved that can't be using live amps and just sending the vocals through the PA.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I still find it fascinating that churches seem to be the only live venue where it is so commonly insisted that guitars be run direct rather than through amps... Not that there's anything wrong with it, your house, your rules, but it's just an interesting idiosyncrasy that only really pops up in churches and the like...

I always thought it made perfect sense.

I've always viewed my role on the team as facilitating the worship of others, not performing in a rock concert. the directional nature of the cabs also creates a challenge in the pursuit of uniform sound dispersion to the crowd you are supposed to be leading in their worship... and our puritanical roots tend to keep worship service a fairly "proper" environment. hence the war against stage volume.

Also, by having such rigid rules it makes it much easier for amateurs to rotate in and out of roles/positions on the technical side... as it limits the possible sources of feedback and the like.

as a vocalist, lower stage volumes held immensely when trying to mix/blend with 3-4 other singers.

it's also why I'll never play guitar in worship... just sing. concert performance? oh yeah, I'm game, lets make some noise, but I love HUGE stage volumes in that arena... which the sound guys HATE

[gopats1479]

OK, I would say that our sound people are qualified to do what they do...for a traditional service. Sure, there are one or two people that know how to mix in a full band, but most of them don't. I've been forced to go direct and can't hear myself at all. That is the age-old problem at my church--"I can't hear myself." Plus, when I played drums, I couldn't hear myself (we have an electric kit). Now when I play guitar, I still can't hear myself. Sounds like the sound guys hate me

[Spinelli]

Originally Posted by mygolfcart123

I don't think you understand, it is NOT about the "audience" as far as what a player uses. Never has been, never will be...we need to get that ......."though our thick skulls!"

It has always been about the player, what he or she is comfortable with playing and what they can afford.

Anyone who tells me players buy musical instruments simply for the audience, is either ignorant, wrong or both!

The audience does not care what you play and that part is true....what is NOT true, is the notion that a player buys things to impress an audience.

If they do, they are making a huge mistake and probably a newbie. Because audiences don't care one way or another who plays what and MOST experienced musicians already know that.

When an experienced player buys an instrument, it is based on the players wants and needs...not the audience he or she plays for!

Agree agree and agree, the Bible says to aim for excellence, we have a gift of leading people to worship with our instruments, with our hearts at the right place. Create beautiful sound for God and give your through practice and diligence, invest in your gear wisely and not foolishly and do it for Gods glory and not based if the audience hears the details or not.