Vaccinations - not the usual issue.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-24-2011, 02:42 AM

So I am someone with terrible allergies, and my immune system has rejected reaching proper titer levels for measels after way more mmr's than any one person ever should have.

I had several bad reactions to vaccines as a kid.

My wife and I are having a baby and I want to look into allergy issues with vaccines beforehand. I am not looking for why I should not get vaccinated, but, like with H1N1 there was a common vaccine that ran a risk of literally killing me, and one I was fine with. Given that my dad and brothers all have certain allergy issues and there probably are some genetic components, I was wondering if anyone has looked into this.

I prefer proper peer reviewed articles or books, or something to start researching this, because after looking around, I am a little at a loss. Anybody know where to look?

I am talking to our doctor about this, but it seems to be something I would prefer to look into. I don't know. Having a vaccine almost kill me scares me pretty good. (It was a hepatitis vaccine which really triggered my latex allergy.) I would like to be aware at least of the common issues and what to do at the very least.

Travis · 09-24-2011, 06:38 AM

I'm certainly no doctor, but I for one am very weary of vaccinations. Dr. Joseph Mercola writes about them a lot, and a quick Google search for him will bring up a lot of stuff.

Generally I think it's always a good idea to take anything the medical establishment says with a grain of salt; at least a little doubt is important. This is because doctors are much like mechanics; you're supposed to just trust anything they say and take it as gospel because they're the expert and you don't know any better.

They tell you what's wrong, how to fix it, and sell you the product and services. In almost any other circumstance we would see this as very problematic and worry about getting ripped off. We may think of this when we go to the mechanic, but many people just trust doctors completely, even though the situation is much the same.

The problem is that medicine is a business like any other--they have services and products to sell, and they only make money when people buy them. The extreme wealth and power of Big Pharma shouldn't be forgotten either, as they have an enormous influence on what stances the medical establishment takes.

Is it in a doctor's best interest that you be sick or healthy? Is it in Big Phama's interest that you be sick or healthy? A sick patient goes to the doctor, pays his co-pay, buys drugs, and has his insurance pay too. A healthy patient doesn't make them a penny. Just something to think about....

**Ted Logan** · 09-24-2011, 10:30 AM

Hey, Bill. Maybe your allergist can help point you in the right direction. Or see if there are medical journal articles on the topic.

I think Travis is right that we should apply the same cautious skepticism to the medical profession that we do to others, but I think he's wrong about the motivations at the level of your local physician. I think, more than a desire to make more money, and rather than a desire to make it unethically, the problem I've encountered is fourfold:

1) Many doctors overprescribe because they're tired of patients who don't think they've been "served" if they come in with a sniffle and leave with the advice, "Drink some orange juice and go to bed early tonight." They know the antibiotic isn't going to do a bit of good, but they simply can't have that conversation one more time. I have several doctor friends who have confirmed that this does indeed go on.
2) Many doctors assume you simply won't take any preventative measures or therapeutic behavior changes anyway, so they prescribe drugs to do what could be managed with dietary changes, exercise, or a disciplined sleep schedule.
3) Doctors are typically so overworked that they have very little time to read the medical journals, so there may be a new drug or a better treatment that they simply haven't read up on yet.
4) The drug companies are aggressive in their marketing. They drop off samples, schedule meetings with doctors to talk about their products, and do whatever they can to try to get their stuff prescribed. Doctors are like everyone else - put something in front of them enough times and it will have an effect on their behavior.

So, there's always the possibility that a doctor's advice is slightly skewed by these factors. Number 1 and 2 can be helped by saying up front with your doctor that you don't want unnecessary medications, and could he or she please help you understand the condition well enough to make lifestyle changes for treatment if possible. Number 3 is hard to overcome - most people don't have access to the information, and many who have access don't know how to parse it well. And you can't make your doctor read something about some treatment you saw on Yahoo.

The biggest problem I have with what Travis is saying is the suggestion that doctors operate like any other business. This is true of some physicians, but there are actually several models you can recognize in the way a doctor practices medicine:

Some adopt the paternalistic model. These doctors truly believe they know what's best for a patient, and will often fail to provide the fullest information possible, because they have concluded that to do so would unnecessarily confuse matters. Why bring this alternative treatment into play when it's inferior? They may also shield the patient from information that could be somehow threatening. This is actually the historical model of medicine which is derived from the historic version of the Hippocratic oath.

Others have adopted a contract model. These doctors are providing a service to a clientele, and their goal is to give the client what the client wants. This is increasingly popular. By agreeing to treat the patient, the doctor is entering a sort of contractual relationship where the patient's wishes are king. Hello, overprescribed antibiotics.

Then there's the hero model. The doctor doesn't treat patients. The doctor fights illness. In this situation, a doctor is more concerned about ending an illness than the wishes or comfort of the patient. This is something you REALLY don't want when you're being treated for a potentially lengthy and painful terminal illness.

A newer model that has come out of reflection on the rise of the contractual model is the covenantal model. Here there are rights and responsibilities on both sides of the relationship, and the doctor's principles about ethical medicine are just as important as a patient's wishes. So, for example, a doctor may ask a patient to find a new physician if the patient clearly and repeatedly wants antibiotics for a cold.

The covenantal and paternalistic models have an interesting result in the vaccination discussion: Doctors operating with these models are starting to refuse treatment to children whose parents refuse vaccinations.

Now, back to the topic at hand. I don't think Travis' advice touches your situation very well. If your allergist doesn't have the information you need, see if you can find someone at a teaching hospital that can help. Maybe find some email addresses for some medical school professors that could help.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-24-2011, 10:59 PM

my problem is I moved and do not currently have an awesome allergist. My last one was like a nice version of House. Seriously.

Also, there may be at least two papers my allergists have written on me in the past. Some of my latex allergy signs are rather unique as far as they were aware.

Hence I have often had to do my own research and discuss it with doctors sometimes. (I mean reading in respected medical journals on a confirmed allergy, and discuss with them what we could try. The fact that latex allergy rarely mimics celiac symptoms was in a footnote of an article, and I am glad my wife found it.) I was just wondering if anybody knew of a place that discussed allergies and vaccines, and potential alternate vaccines. There is a rather meaningful list of vaccines I know I can't take. Some of them I wish I could. (Meningitis is one I have to avoid, as well as Hep A, and the injectable H1N1 are some off the top of my head that are unsafe for me.)

Going into kids with this... I look up vaccines stuff and I am inundated with autism links, mercury, blah, blah, blah, and I am interested in allergy reactions. I am pro vaccine, and I am pro making knowledgeable health decisions when you know you are genetically preloaded to have a potential anomaly.

BTW, I have asked a few of my wife's physician friends and they kind of stare blankly at me. I am thinking this isn't too big an issue for most people, but having gone into shock after a vaccine, I do want to kind of know what is out there. H1N1 is what set me to thinking. There are two versions. One is fine for me, one could kill me or at least make me start to go into anaphylaxis, which I am all too familiar with the opening acts of.

SccHarpGirl · 09-25-2011, 09:13 AM

If your last allergist was really good, any chance you could travel back sometime to discuss this with him? Or discuss it over the phone or via email, or see if he has any recommendations for allergists in your area who might be able to help?

**MtlMom** · 09-25-2011, 10:49 AM

I can't give a neutral opinion on this. My 3 year old nephew died two years ago from the flu. He got the flu from his mother, who was hardly sick at all, and didn't get the vaccination because "she never gets sick". Now she is obviously a great advocate for "don't get the vaccination for yourself, get it for someone you love".

**Ted Logan** · 09-25-2011, 01:34 PM

Amen to that. Heather (middle school teacher) and I (then a youth pastor) never got the flu shot even though we spent all our time around schools and school kids. Now that we have kids of our own, we do get it. Got them last week, in fact.

I'm also pro-vaccination, but also hugely anti-paternalism and anti-contractualism when it comes to medicine.

Back to what I said before, BSPE, can you get in contact with a teaching hospital, a research hospital, or a medical school faculty member?

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-27-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Logan

Back to what I said before, BSPE, can you get in contact with a teaching hospital, a research hospital, or a medical school faculty member?

Aaron, that is where I have tried. My wife worked at an academic medical center.

**MtlMom** · 09-27-2011, 07:57 PM

The CDC is a good resource.

Egg allergies are no longer the issue they once were.

My recommendation: have the shot at your doctor's office, where they can treat you immediately in the extremely unlikely event that you should have an anaphylactic reaction. If you are going to have a reaction, you will know it in a very short amount of time.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 09-30-2011, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtlMom

The CDC is a good resource.

Egg allergies are no longer the issue they once were.

My recommendation: have the shot at your doctor's office, where they can treat you immediately in the extremely unlikely event that you should have an anaphylactic reaction. If you are going to have a reaction, you will know it in a very short amount of time.

Well, for me, the likelyhood of an anaphylactic reaction is actually fairly decent. My dad has had issues with this as well, being as he is probably the king of horrible allergies. Being as I come preloaded with severe allergies, I am just concerned that my child will as well.

Like I said, there are a list of vaccines that my allergist has informed me I can't take, interestingly, several were not mentioned by the CDC specifically. I was just wondering if there was a table of common allergens in each. Like swine flu, there is an alternative vaccine that I am fine with. I fear that my child will have this allergy since my dad has it and 1 of my brothers does.

Going through the CDC info, there are quite a few things they are ambiguous on... ...and given the number of don't take if you have any life threatening allergies, I probably should have had less than I have had. Unfortunately, most of the vaccine info I keep finding is from quacks. The CDC stuff is good, but I guess I need to take this to another level... Unfortunately, it isn't always easy to find reliable info.

**MtlMom** · 10-02-2011, 10:36 AM

Have you had a reaction to a flu shot in the past?

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-03-2011, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MtlMom

Have you had a reaction to a flu shot in the past?

I am not concerned so much with those. I had some bad reactions to childhood and other vaccines. My concern is making sure I get the most hypoallergenic alternatives for the safety of my child.

I have not had a reaction simply because most years, I read the warnings and frankly, it is not usually cdc recommended. My wife gets them every year.