[Karen M]

Greetings again All


I'm trying this again because I the poll options were disputed on the last thread.


I have heard several definitions for God's omniscience and I was wondering what you think the most Biblically supported definition was?


A) God is not omniscient(I think this guy was the minority though?)

B) God knows past and present but not future

C) God knows past, present, and future in means of large events but does not actually know every individual detail of every person

D) God can know past, present, and future in means of every single detail but he chooses not to in some cases

E) God knows all past, present, and future [an example would be that God would know that Mike did action 1(present) because Tom put him in situation A which caused him to remember his abuse as a child(past) and drove him crazy. God also knows what Tom's reaction to Mike will be before it happens(future)]

F) God knows everything absolutly and his knowledge can be described as knowing the set of all ultimatly true propositions(TP) and the set of all ultimatly false propositions(FP) within the main set of all possible propostions(P). [ an example here would be that God still knows that Mike did action 1 because Tom put him in situation A which caused him to remember his abuse as a child and God would still know Tom's future reaction to Mike. The difference is that God would also know that it was possible that Mike would have done actions 2 or 3 instead of 1 and that Tom only had a 50/50 chance of putting him in situation A and God would know all the other possible actions Tom or Mike could have made but didn't]

P= all possibilities that can occur

TP= things in set P which actually do occur

FP= things in set P which were possible but did not actually occur in reality



G) Combination of some of the above?

H) other?


I would appreciate it if you would complement any votes on this poll with responses on the thread of which option you choose and why(Bible verses supporting your choice would be nice).


Thanks for any help you can provide explaining this

Karen

[Karen M]

These are the verses quoted by Aaron last thread, I think he claimed they were supporting option E


1 Timothy 6:15
which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Psalms 69:5
O God, it is You who knows my folly,
And my wrongs are not hidden from You.

Psalms 139:15
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

Luke 8:17 (Mark 4:22)
"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

Heb 4:12, 13

John 21:17

1 John 3:20

Jeremiah. 1:5

Ps. 139:1-3

Ps. 139:4

1 Sam. 16:7

Ps. 33:13

Ps. 119:168

Prov. 5:21

[guitarman]

Yeah, those verses support option E. I would also like to add that I do not believe that option F exists. The reason: chance does not exist with God.

Aaron

[Karen M]

>>>Yeah, those verses support option E. I would also like to add that I do not believe that option F exists. The reason: chance does not exist with God.<<<

Hmm...let me see if I understand you: would this be claiming that we have no actual free will and everything is predetermined?

Or did I miss that one?

[guitarman]

Nope, you got it .

[Karen M]

....Why do I feel like a Cal/Arm debate is about to drop on my head now? ...

[guitarman]

But if you want to get into that discussion, we should do one of two things:
1) Start a new thread or, 2) define 'will' .

Aaro

[guitarman]

WAIT!! IDEA!!!

Ok, you're not a Christian, right?

[Karen M]

Oh well, thanks a lot for the verses

I think I'll leave this thread out there for a bit and see what other people have to say about it. For now, though, I'll agree that E definatly seems the most supported w/ all those verses you gave.

[Karen M]

>>>Ok, you're not a Christian, right?<<<

no I'm not Why?

[guitarman]

The reason I asked is this; What if I give you a list of verses and you give the most objective interpretation of them that you can. I understand that 'objective interpretation' is a bit of a contradiction, but I think you know what I mean.

Here's why. Christians who believe in God tend to form beliefs about God before they discover His attributes in scripture. Well, I know you've been on these boards for a while, but I would think that you haven't come to a decision as to what direction the scriptures speak on that matter, nor have you decided about God's attributes, because you don't believe in Him (I could be wrong, so correct me if I am).

Basically, I want an outside (and as unbiased as can be) opinion of what scripture says regarding this topic. I want an opinion of what the text says, not what someone feels the text should say if you understand it in some strange way.

Do you follow?


Aaron

[Karen M]

Yes, I understand you, but I'm not sure it would work because, though my entire belief system does not hang in the balance of my interpretations, my interpretation might unconciously come partially from my assessment of what situation I think the writers were in(in other words, I think that the OT was written by a primitive Hebrew civilzation that was just as inspired by God as the ancient Greeks who wrote about Zeus)...

We could try it if you still want though. I actually am interested in Christian beliefs in general too(hence some of my threads in this forum ).

[edited because my grammer becomes horrid when I'm tired...]

[guitarman]

Well, assessment of historical context is most certainly a reasonable bias in hermeneutics. In interpretation of any historical document, the social, textual, and historical context, must be understood. But I think that most of the verses I give would require a minimal knowledge about the author's (and recipient's) situation.

However, have a meeting to get to, so I will ask later on. Sound good? (Later on may not be until tomorrow...)


Aaron

[Karen M]

Okay, I'll cya whenever "later on" is then

[Karen M]

Hmm...I see some people have voted for F now but I don't see anyone responding to Aaron's enormous support for E...? I would appreciate it if those who have voted F would please explain their possition.