Omniscence again...

Luke · 02-25-2002, 12:48 AM

F all the way

Karen M · 02-25-2002, 07:43 AM

I would like to note that F assumes there are other possibilities that exist.

Also, can someone please back up their position of "F" with some verses?

Karen M · 02-25-2002, 07:51 AM

Hmm...now that I think about it again actually, option F does not actually assume other possibilites exist, it only says God would know what would happen if something else occured...

If it isn't F, how would God know when to invervene in human affairs and when to do things if he doesn't know all the options perfectly of what will happen if he does action 1 and what will happen if he does action 2?(under option E he would know that he eventually does option 2, but would he know what would happen should he have done action 1?)

JerryLove · 02-25-2002, 08:04 AM

The problem here is that God has changed his mind, and has been convinced, and has regretted his decisions.

Genesis talks about regret over the world he created just before sending the flood, Satan talked him into Job's torture, Job (IIRC) talked him into not destroying some small town, Job also out wrerstled God, but that's not very relevent.

If God knows all the futures and what will do which, how could you persuade him to do anyhting (he already knows your argument before you make it)? How could her regret a decision? (He knew the outcome, and the regret, beforehand).

02-25-2002, 08:09 AM

Is that an arguement for B Jerry?

biblemanryan · 02-25-2002, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karen M
>>>Yeah, those verses support option E. I would also like to add that I do not believe that option F exists. The reason: chance does not exist with God.<<<

Hmm...let me see if I understand you: would this be claiming that we have no actual free will and everything is predetermined?

Or did I miss that one?

Luke · 02-25-2002, 08:57 AM

Karen:
Mostly just logical extrapolation. E and F end up being ultimately the same thing, but I think that not only does God know what He has decreed to occur, He also knows what would happen had He decreed something else.

Luke · 02-25-2002, 08:58 AM

Biblemanryan:
I, for one, don't believe in free will.

Karen M · 02-25-2002, 02:39 PM

Okay, I guess its time to get into another point here...

Are other options other than the ones we make possible? Why or why not?

Phil · 02-25-2002, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Ok, just for the record, I want to say this. I affirm that God could indeed know all possible outcomes of all possible decisions. But since those outcomes do not exist, never did exist, nor will they ever exist, it is a moot point. Perhaps the knowledge of them exists and perhaps it does not (though, I would say that it does exist). If the knowledge of those outcomes does exist, then God knows it, but if and only if it exists (because everything that exists was created by God, thus God would know it by proxy).

It's 1:20 AM, and I'm tired, but does that make sense?

Very much so, and I agree with you completely. Does that mean I should vote for F or E? Probably F...

Enobmurt · 02-25-2002, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Are other options other than the ones we make possible? Why or why not?

At first glance, I am going to have go with no because God has already decided that the way things happen now, is the best "option" that glorifies Him

guitarman · 02-25-2002, 04:50 PM

Karen said:
Are other options other than the ones we make possible? Why or why not?

guitarman says:
Well, what do you think?

Aaron

Karen M · 02-25-2002, 09:57 PM

>>>Well, what do you think?<<<

I would have to guess that no, we can make no other actions than the ones which we do make.

guitarman · 02-25-2002, 09:59 PM

Why not?

A

I just made a bold, italic, letter A. Are you saying that I couldn't have typed any other letter than that?

Aaron

Karen M · 02-25-2002, 10:11 PM

hehe, Nice to see you too Aaron.

>>>Why not?<<<

Because I believe our actions are the products of 1) our makeup, 2) outside stimulus, and 3) basic cause and effect

>>>A

I just made a bold, italic, letter A. Are you saying that I couldn't have typed any other letter than that?<<<

Yes, I am saying that you probably had the illusion of free-will but I think your letter A was probably the result of 1) your past experiences and 2) how your brain naturally functions which modivated you to write that A.

On the other hand, this is just a guess on my part and it could very well change once I study Quatum Theory more in detail. This is probably a bit off topic to God's omniscience though...

Now, if you were asking my opinion on what I think our options would be if I believed an Omnipotent, Omniscent God existed, then I would have to give the same answer that I still don't think we have free will because our actions are modivated by the same things, only God happens to be the one who started them.

I would also guess that by "omniscent" it is ment by the majority of Christians today that God is either F, or as close as possible to F as you can get(though I'm not sure if that is exactly what was ment in the Bible, but I'll assume it is for now because everyone here seems to support F or E and they seem to be well-versed in Bible.

).