Omniscence again...

Karen M · 02-24-2002, 08:38 PM

I guess I'll analyze Aaron's verses just to get this started...

>>>1 Timothy 6:15
which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,<<<

This says that he will control something at a proper time, it doesn't say anything about the possibilites of other times...

>>>Psalms 69:5
O God, it is You who knows my folly,
And my wrongs are not hidden from You.<<<

This would be true in situation F also though.

>>>Psalms 139:15
My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;<<<

This seems to be saying that God made this person, I don't see how it comments on his omniscence?

>>>Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.<<<

This says he will bring every act to judgement(every TP). TP still exists in option F, God just happens to know all of P and FP also...

This just says that the thing that matters the most and will be judged is the actual TP.

>>>Luke 8:17 (Mark 4:22)
"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.<<<

Hmm...at first I thought this clearly supported E, but now that I re-read it, it does not say that every ACTION that can happen does happen, it just says that everything hidden(such as secrets or unconfessed sins perhaps?) will be known. I'm going to go ahead and claim this one only deals with TP also...

>>>1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.<<<

Again, this is dealing with the TP, it does provide evidence against the possibilities of P or FP.

I'll anayize the other ones once I look them all up

Be back in a few,

Karen

Bryan · 02-24-2002, 08:43 PM

OK, I voted F, but after reading and thinking I am now going with E, so if a Mod would find it within his heart to change my vote from F to E, I would appreciate it.

My reasons for E are soon to come, after I finish my study on Romans (Ok well maybe not soon.)

02-24-2002, 08:59 PM

Okay, back

>>>Heb 4:12, 13<<<

I don't see how this doesn't also apply to F

>>>John 21:17<<<

I don't understand how this supports E?

>>>1 John 3:20<<<

I also do not see how this supports E any more than F?

>>>Jeremiah. 1:5<<<

This one would also work for F, the only difference is that God would know not only those in TP, but those who only had the possibility of being born but never were too.

>>>Ps. 139:1-3<<<

Also, in support of both E and F.

>>>Ps. 139:4<<<

Same as above.

>>>1 Sam. 16:7<<<

same.

>>>Ps. 33:13<<<

same.

>>>Ps. 119:168<<<

same.

>>>Prov. 5:21<<<

same.

Hmm...well I think you have definatly narrowed it down to either E or F.

Someone supporting E might want to double check some of those though, I went through pretty fast so I hope I didn't take one out of context when I read it...

Karen

Phil · 02-24-2002, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bryan
OK, I voted F, but after reading and thinking I am now going with E, so if a Mod would find it within his heart to change my vote from F to E, I would appreciate it.

My reasons for E are soon to come, after I finish my study on Romans (Ok well maybe not soon.)

Done.

Phil · 02-24-2002, 09:05 PM

I'm probably gonna go with F simply because I know that God could know anything that is possible to know. I really don't think it makes a difference between E or F because everything that is possible to know is going to be able to be known through E, therefore it doesn't make a difference or not regarding things that don't happen... but I still think God could know what would happen no matter what.

Karen M · 02-24-2002, 09:07 PM

^^ that was me.

I would also like to note that though I am anaylizing Aaron's posts, I am still convenced the Bible most likely supports E because I think E fits the best with Calvinism(which I also think the Bible supports).

In fact, I think this might get to be another Cal/Arm debate

, but lets try to keep it on omniscience for a bit longer and see if we can find a verse that clearly, beyond a shadow of a doubt supports one of the poll options...

Phil · 02-24-2002, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karen M
^^ that was me.

Really? It looks a lot like my post... considering it has my avatar, my writing style, my words, and my signature.

Karen M · 02-24-2002, 09:09 PM

>>>I'm probably gonna go with F simply because I know that God could know anything that is possible to know.<<<

Thats probably one of the points in this debate. Is it possible to know other possibilities? Or is what actually occurs the ONLY possibility that ever had a chance of occuring?

Karen M · 02-24-2002, 09:10 PM

>>>Really? It looks a lot like my post... considering it has my avatar, my writing style, my words, and my signature.<<<

lol, I ment the unreg post before yours

Jesus Fish <>< · 02-24-2002, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karen M
>>>I'm probably gonna go with F simply because I know that God could know anything that is possible to know.<<<

Thats probably one of the points in this debate. Is it possible to know other possibilities? Or is what actually occurs the ONLY possibility that ever had a chance of occuring?

It's like, from our point of view, if we are driving down the road, we can turn left or right at the street, but since God knows for sure that we are going to turn right, no matter what we think in our heads, God knows what will happen, because from His point of view, there is nothing we could have done but turned right. Maybe that clears it up a bit. So i'm leaning toward E now

And if this doesn't turn into a Cal/Arm debate, I'll be happy

Blindman · 02-24-2002, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesus Fish <><
It's like, from our point of view, if we are driving down the road, we can turn left or right at the street, but since God knows for sure that we are going to turn right, no matter what we think in our heads, God knows what will happen, because from His point of view, there is nothing we could have done but turned right.

That doesn't mean that you had no choice. For example: I know from hindsight that this morning, when I walked into the cafeteria, I decided to get Toasty-O's for breakfast rather than the Marshmellow Mateys or the Fruity Loopies. That doesn't mean that I couldn't have chosen something other than Toasty O's, it just means that because it has already happened, I know what my decision was going to have been.

Similarly, a necessary implication of omniscience is that God does not experience time in the same way that we do, but rather sees all of time at once. So it isn't a matter of God knowing the future, but rather simply a matter of God seeing the path that history will take from a point beyond human history.

Suppose that you throw a piece of spaghetti against your kitchen wall (to see if it's cooked well enough or not.) It ends up stuck to the wall in some sort of squiggly pattern:



\

 |

  \

   \

    |

   /

   |

  /

  \

  /

 /

 |
 

Now, suppose that this spaghetti is actually the entire life of a one-dimensional creature that does nothing but move right and left.  And the reason for this particular squiggle is that the spaghetti-creature chose to move first right, then left, etc.  The spaghetti creature had free choice in how it would bend and twist, but because you can see the entire length of it (its time dimension) at once, it looks to you liek the whole shape is predetermined.

Jesus Fish <>< · 02-24-2002, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blindman

That doesn't mean that you had no choice. For example: I know from hindsight that this morning, when I walked into the cafeteria, I decided to get Toasty-O's for breakfast rather than the Marshmellow Mateys or the Fruity Loopies. That doesn't mean that I couldn't have chosen something other than Toasty O's, it just means that because it has already happened, I know what my decision was going to have been.

Similarly, a necessary implication of omniscience is that God does not experience time in the same way that we do, but rather sees all of time at once. So it isn't a matter of God knowing the future, but rather simply a matter of God seeing the path that history will take from a point beyond human history.

Suppose that you throw a piece of spaghetti against your kitchen wall (to see if it's cooked well enough or not.) It ends up stuck to the wall in some sort of squiggly pattern:



\

 |

  \

   \

    |

   /

   |

  /

  \

  /

 /

 |
 

Now, suppose that this spaghetti is actually the entire life of a one-dimensional creature that does nothing but move right and left.  And the reason for this particular squiggle is that the spaghetti-creature chose to move first right, then left, etc.  The spaghetti creature had free choice in how it would bend and twist, but because you can see the entire length of it (its time dimension) at once, it looks to you liek the whole shape is predetermined.

I totally agree. From your point of view, you could have chosen one of those 3 different things for breakfast, and you chose one of them over the other. But, from God's point of view, looking at that spaghetti noodle, He knows exactly what you are going to do, so from His POV, He knows there is nothing else you could have done.

Ugh, I can tell i'm getting too far into the Cal/Arm debate. Sorry everyone

Enobmurt · 02-24-2002, 10:05 PM

Alright, to me at least, it seems that it doesn't matter if a person has free will or not. God KNOWS what will happen, whether and/or how much he intervenes is another thread. The fact still remains though that He knows what is going to happen.

And I say since God knows what will happen; I can't imagine God playing around in His mind other "possibilities".

For all we know, what will happen, and what God knows will happen IS the best possibility He chose before there was time

hhmm...alright, ignore the last statement, that's more Arm/Cal, but the fact remains God knows what will happen, no point in knowing possibilities since God knows those possibilities won't happen.

Yeah...Understand?!?:kgrin:

guitarman · 02-25-2002, 12:19 AM

Ok, just for the record, I want to say this. I affirm that God could indeed know all possible outcomes of all possible decisions. But since those outcomes do not exist, never did exist, nor will they ever exist, it is a moot point. Perhaps the knowledge of them exists and perhaps it does not (though, I would say that it does exist). If the knowledge of those outcomes does exist, then God knows it, but if and only if it exists (because everything that exists was created by God, thus God would know it by proxy).

It's 1:20 AM, and I'm tired, but does that make sense?

Aaron

Chrysostom · 02-25-2002, 12:31 AM

I will go with F. It means that not only does God know what all has and will happened, but God also knows what effects any changes in the happenings would have. Although these happenings will not change, God's infinite wisdom and intelligence can easily discern what effects any changes would have.

As Aaron said, it's basically moot to E, as nothing different will happen that what God knows.