[jthomas1600]

Redbaron. Great post. I've gotta take exception though with your painting all HD riders into your stereotyped image. I ride a Harley as do a few other guys I know. None of us go on poker runs from bar to bar and I think for the most part we all wear real helmets. I also see almost every I drive to Houston some idiot on a rice rocket going about 100 mph weaving in and out of traffic...often times in jeans and a t-shirt. I've not seen any one on a Harley pulling this stunt yet. But I don't paint everybody that rides a cafe racer into this stereotype.

[redbaron]

I know it's not every HD rider, but the overwhelming majority think that 3,000 miles in a year is "a lot of riding" and spend more time polishing their chrome than they've ever spent in the saddle.

Aside from the fact that they almost never have gear on (don't get me started on the novelty helmets about 50% of them are wearing out here), and the fact that most of 'em never pass the newbie rider plateau has colored my perspective a bit.

The fact that even the clubs that used to be hardcore criminals are now taking CPA's and dentists to be a part of the 'thug lifstyle' just bothers me. Oh yes, orthodontist by day, Bandido by night!

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by redbaron

I take the same tactic, they're stupid, unnecessary laws that prevent stupidity from resolving itself. As a bit of a Darwinist from some of the previous threads, I'm surprised that Jerry isn't a bigger fan of the "remove the warning labels and let natural selection sort it out" Though I kind of wonder how much devils advocate is being played here.

There's a lot to go through, but I am in the "natural selection" camp.

Post #3 I think summed up both my gut reaction and my logical analysis (which, lacking facts, lacks a conclusion)

"I don't much care if informed people choose to risk their own lives: the question is "am I paying some of the costs of that risk".

Another big one is unlicensed under-trained riders, but that's a whole different beef. I think mandatory driver training for cars & motorcycles in this country is simply appalling,

Manditory training seems to have some similarities to helmet laws (though I suppose the connection between being untrained and harming someone not yourself is more clear)

There's a lot more going on in helmet laws than just helmets, a lot of it stems from the community wanting everyone else to take a hike about telling them what they can & can't do, since they clearly don't give two craps about us.

It's possible.

I think a more likely factor is that people just don't care about the negative consequences of a law when the negative consequences affect someone else.

(BTW: I ride (well, not recently), always wear a full-face helmet, and hate the damn things (esp at low speed on a nice day))

[adamwagg]

Two things from your post Redbaron.

1. Sure it might be bad car drivers killing motorcyclists, but the motorcyclist is the still the person who is dead.

2. I'm surprised that people don't get charged with vehicular manslaughter when they kill a motorcyclists and they are at fault - I know that over here they get hit with the equivalent. In fact on the back of our rego stickers (we put little coloured stickers in the bottom left corner of the windscreen to show the car is registered) it has said 'check twice for motorbikes' for the last couple of years.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

2. I'm surprised that people don't get charged with vehicular manslaughter when they kill a motorcyclists and they are at fault - I know that over here they get hit with the equivalent. In fact on the back of our rego stickers (we put little coloured stickers in the bottom left corner of the windscreen to show the car is registered) it has said 'check twice for motorbikes' for the last couple of years.

They can... but the "at fault" needs to rise to the level of "reckless disregard for human life".

Doing 80 through a school zone is manslaughter. Driving drunk is manslaughter. Not checking one of your mirrors before lane-changing is generally not.

Though that's actually another argument in favor of helmet regulation. Reduction of harm to the at-fault driver.