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Unread 08-15-2011, 11:02 AM   #61
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I'm new here, but I want to chime in. I have two very versitile guitars that I think are equally matched:

A Gibson LP Traditional Pro - '57 in the neck, Bursbucker 3 in the Bridge, but each volume pot is a coil split for that PU, so you can have all the traditional LP sounds, 3 different single coil sounds, or two combinations of one humbucker, one single - with different volume/tome for each.

It can get a great tele or P90 sound, and can get about 75% of the way to a strat. Amazing Guitar.

The second one is my Fender Am Std Strat. I had it wired with a push-pull that ties the bridge & Neck PUs together, Giving it 7 pickup choices instead of the usual 5 on a strat.

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Unread 08-17-2011, 04:54 PM   #62
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I've been away for far too long.

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Originally Posted by gtrdave View Post
Utah = *barf*
Et tu, Brute?

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Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
Oh dear.

1st reaction is...

ok, actually first reaction was reswallowing the little bit of sick in the back of my throat....

SECOND reaction is that the 5 way switch is going to get knocked EVERY strum.....
To be perfectly honest, I had the same reaction when I saw your stuff.

They all look nice enough, and I'm sure you enjoy building them (which in the end is the only reason we should), but I didn't really see anything special about them. Frankly, a lot of them look kinda amateurish, and not anything better than what the guys in my local guitar building club do (who, btw, count many proficient and skilled builders among their ranks). Now, that is not meant as a slight in any way. We all have to start somewhere, and we can always get better with each instrument we build. But if you've been building for as long as you've been building, I think we should see something more noteworthy than what I've seen thus far, which looks like it was put together from a kit.

(Yes, I know they are built from scratch, I've seen the pics, I've seen the shop, and laminate necks don't come in most kits. The question one might ask is, if you can't do better than a kit, then why bother building from scratch? Photographers ask the same question of themselves. If they're at Big Ben in England, or Mount Rushmore here in the states, and they can't get shots that look any better than $0.50 postcards sold at the gift shop nearby, why bother?)

Also, I built that guitar when I turned 20 . . . what kind of guitar building work were you doing when you turned 20? How many "mandonaughts" did you crank out by then?

So, that said, he who lives in glass houses shouldn't throw stones . . .

Incidentally, I play up at the neck joint, so the 5-way switch is not a problem. Those knobs in the upper left near the neck would be a problem, however, which is why I've since recessed them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve View Post


Whenever any talk of him comes up, I wonder if that guitar actually did anything near what it was claimed to be able to do.
In a word, yes.

And, frankly, I'm puzzled. Why wouldn't it? Are you suggesting that the parts I used (all top of the line, standard professional equipment) wouldn't function as intended?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ax View Post
Come on man... that guitar cured cancer... then blasted off into space on it's own after it gained sentience and realized that it's power was too great to fall into wrong hands, and went to battle Galactus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster and their evil pet the ravenous bugblatter beast of traal.
Well, I don't really like to publicize those facts. You know, don't want to make a big deal of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamforchrist123 View Post
It looked like a combination of this:


this:


and this:



That's about it.
That looks about right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
Wasn't there also a second guitar of some sort in the works? Or something that was in the pipeline, but updates never really came for that either.
The Bluescaster. I did the initial proof-of-concept, and it was problematic. I'll see if I can post some pics (oh no, he did not just say that!!).

Ultimately the concept will work, and should work in spades, but it's definitely in a "in progress" status.

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And then *poof*. Gone without a trace. Cheshire Cat is like the Roanoke Colony of CGR.
It's been said.

(Very Keyser Soze of me, isn't it?)

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Originally Posted by gtrdave View Post
Versatility is more in the hands and mind of the player than it is in the amount of pickups and switches on the guitar, imho.
Yeah, right. Tell that to Tom Morello.

So, you can generate distortion, or a wah effect, or an envelope filter effect, or talk box, or tube screamer, or big muff fuzz, or infinite sustain, or compression, all with your hands? Or let's go simpler: humbucking sound? Tele sound? Strat sound? LP sound? You can make a solid body sound like an acoustic? Or an acoustic sound like an electric? All with just your hands?

I've always maintained that your sound is ultimately in your hands, and believe that today. However, let's be honest guys. As romantic as that notion is, it does not take away from the fact that we play a very technology driven instrument. The violin has remained virtually unchanged for the last several hundred years, but the very definition and genesis of the guitar has represented nothing but change. And this is before electricity even entered the picture.

It's technological evolution, starting with it's unique tuning, and then on from there thru various different construction methods, is the reason why it became so widespread and popular.

I simply acknowledge it's technological potential and seek to capitalize on it.

Incidentally, least anyone wonder about the comment above about Tom Morello, he's one of my favorite guitarists, and is not only incredibly talented in regards to what he does, but can also shred like most of the top pros and shredders, but made the choice early on not to go down that road, but explore other harmonic possibilities.

To me, it all adds value, has a place, and holds merit.

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 08-17-2011 at 07:48 PM.
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Unread 08-17-2011, 06:24 PM   #63
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Chesh,

First, welcome back.

Now, the reality of all this questioning boils down to a simple thing. We live in a society where a vast majority of people have phones and a vast majority of these phones have cameras attached to them and a vast majority of these cameras will also shoot video. Now I realize that you only post here once in a great while, but for many of us the continual (back in the day) promise of current pictures coupled with your enigmatic nature has just led to disillusionment.

With the Bluescaster you mention that you did an initial proof-of-concept that was problematic. In the view of many of us the Utah suffers the same fate. It's a guitar that was frequently talked about and discussed, but the only pictures that were ever posted were old, out of date and/or had very little description to go along with them.

Point being this: In a community that embraces the notion of "pics or it didn't happen" you have historically touted an instrument (an occasionally a a second instrument) with very little photographic evidence and even less video evidence backing it. I'm certain that if a youtube video were posted with some sound clips and a basic explanation of each function (for example, "this is what a single coil setting sounds like", "this is what a humbucker setting sounds like", "this is what a dual single coil out of phase setting sounds like", etc.) it would put a lot of the doubters at ease.

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Unread 08-17-2011, 06:47 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve View Post
Chesh,

First, welcome back.

Now, the reality of all this questioning boils down to a simple thing. We live in a society where a vast majority of people have phones and a vast majority of these phones have cameras attached to them and a vast majority of these cameras will also shoot video. Now I realize that you only post here once in a great while, but for many of us the continual (back in the day) promise of current pictures coupled with your enigmatic nature has just led to disillusionment.

With the Bluescaster you mention that you did an initial proof-of-concept that was problematic. In the view of many of us the Utah suffers the same fate. It's a guitar that was frequently talked about and discussed, but the only pictures that were ever posted were old, out of date and/or had very little description to go along with them.

Point being this: In a community that embraces the notion of "pics or it didn't happen" you have historically touted an instrument (an occasionally a a second instrument) with very little photographic evidence and even less video evidence backing it. I'm certain that if a youtube video were posted with some sound clips and a basic explanation of each function (for example, "this is what a single coil setting sounds like", "this is what a humbucker setting sounds like", "this is what a dual single coil out of phase setting sounds like", etc.) it would put a lot of the doubters at ease.

Some fair points, but I would argue that a number of years ago when I was actively posting on the work I was going, camera phones weren't all that. I know. I've tried.

More to the point, I might be handy with woodworking, but I wasn't never really handy with cell phones and camera phones. I did make several attempts to take photos, and they all came out blurry. As I've stated in the past, what would be the point?

Also, the reason why I've been posting so infrequently is two-fold. First, I've been working on my business, which in many regards takes precedence. And, second, and more importantly, I've been raising my daughter, which also takes precedence.

In fact, I had almost gotten out of any kind of lutherie work altogether, regrettably (apart from bringing the bluescaster to POC), due to the fact that some of my key tools finally bit the dust. My radial arm saw finally died, for one. There goes my ability to crank out proper body and neck blanks, along with my ability to attach my planing attachment, and so on.

Now, as far as the Utah being super versatile, or having a bunch of bells and whistles on it, in all truthfulness, it was basically a square LP-Tele hybrid when it was first conceived, and that's all I ever intended it to be at first. It wasn't until years later that I revisited one or two design concerns that I totally reacquainted myself with the state of the art technology that had come to fruition . . . things that, had they been available before, I would have totally jumped on.

As far as "pics or it didn't happen", I'm not exactly sure I understand how that applies. I've posted plenty of pics that show that it clearly does exist. What's more, I think it would be evident that I had done a considerable amount of work on it between it's first inception (pics of which I've posted) and the progress I've made with it (pics I've also posted). Some of those pics may be hard to find now, as I uploaded them as attachments, and since CGR changed to a new server, a lot of them vanished. Shame, really. I hope I still have the backups.

But, of course, as you said, camera technology has since come along way, and I am looking to fully avail myself of that fact, and see if I can't get proper pics not just of the Utah, but of everything.

As far as YouTube goes, that's another possibility. But let's stick with the new pics first.

Chesh
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Unread 08-17-2011, 07:36 PM   #65
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*speechless*

Can't wait to see pics, man.
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Unread 08-17-2011, 07:40 PM   #66
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Well, the Chesh returns. *grin*

I think this thread still needs more pics.
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Unread 08-17-2011, 07:42 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer. View Post
Well, the Chesh returns. *grin*

I think this thread still needs more pics.
Indeed.

Also, consider this. The Utah really represents two different guitars: one custom built for my own playing preferences, and the other as a POC guitar for a number of challenging scenarios I've set for myself. IOW, right now, with it being stripped of everything but an EMG-TC and a volume control, which it is, it's just as versatile as any other hardtail guitar out there at the moment. Even more so, if I put the Duncan JB back in it, or the EMG-85. But that wasn't the point of the upgrades.

The question is, of all of these different features that are popular and in demand, can they all peacefully coexist on one guitar? And if so, why resign ourselves to having to have several different instruments to get the results we want, when one instrument can deliver all of those features? Of course, naturally, after we accomplish this we can add to the equation as many additional guitars as we wish, assuming that it's logistically feasible.

IOW , if you were called up and told you needed to fly out to a gig tomorrow, and you could only bring one guitar, and few or no effects pedals, not to mention not knowing what amp or PA system you were plugging into, which guitar would you take, and why? That was one of the challenges I set for myself, design wise.

Also, in taking on that challenge, I was also taking on the challenge of hitting a lot of moving targets all at once, each of which zigging when another key component zagged. That's one of the reasons why I've maintained something of a 80% completion lag-time, if that's the right term for it. Technology has changed so considerably over the last years. If I had laid everything out ahead of time back at the beginning, worked it all out on paper, and said "yep, that looks about right", and then routed the holes and cavities for everything, then I would be seriously screwed when the next generation of that technology came along. Fortunately, while I've had a lot of near misses, I've managed to avert disaster when planning a rout or heavy modification in the eleventh hour, just discovering that a certain bit of technology or equipment wouldn't be compatible with another bit.

In fact, that's the way that it started out, as Martin inadvertently alluded to. While I do play up at the neck joint, that 5 way switch is indeed pretty tight in there. There is a reason for that. I didn't design it that way originally. It was a later addition. The layout of the controls were perfectly positioned and proportioned to the rest of the guitar body. Very minimalist and zen like. Two pickups, three knobs, two switches. It was only after I started in on the upgrades that things started to get pretty crowded. Ergo, it's been something of a tightrope walk to get it all in there.

Another example of the changes with technology, I was going to add a GraphTech Ghost system (and this was after seriously pursuing the Roland system), with all the various bells, whistles, buttons, switches, and features. Ergo, I drilled all the switch holes for that, and routed the cavities. But before I ordered it, I discovered that some of the technology would not be compatible with what I already had on it. Oops. Fortunately, extra cavity space and extra holes can be re-purposed for other options.

Anyway, now that I have better access to photographic equipment, pics will hopefully be on the way.

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 08-17-2011 at 08:21 PM.
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Unread 08-18-2011, 01:45 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat View Post

But if you've been building for as long as you've been building, I think we should see something more noteworthy than what I've seen thus far, which looks like it was put together from a kit.

(Yes, I know they are built from scratch, I've seen the pics, I've seen the shop, and laminate necks don't come in most kits. The question one might ask is, if you can't do better than a kit, then why bother building from scratch? Photographers ask the same question of themselves. If they're at Big Ben in England, or Mount Rushmore here in the states, and they can't get shots that look any better than $0.50 postcards sold at the gift shop nearby, why bother?)

Chesh
To me this comes across as unneccessarily unkind to Martin. He took a swipe at your taste but not your skills IMO. (As for myself, I love the idea of a state-shaped guitar.)
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Unread 08-18-2011, 01:57 AM   #69
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To me this comes across as unneccessarily unkind to Martin. He took a swipe at your taste but not your skills IMO. (As for myself, I love the idea of a state-shaped guitar.)
Agreed. I have half a mind to close the thread over that hostility.

Not liking an aesthetic is one thing. I don't like strats, gtrdave doesn't like sgs. I don't happen to like squared off guitars or switches myself. That says nothing to the quality of anyones work. I happen to like a minimalist guitar. An LP jr is about my ideal. You know what that means? It means I like Lp Jrs. Thats it.

But being unkind is a choice that one makes.

Side note. A few POC guitars have been made by me, but ultimately I like slightly different guitars than most people. My current project is a limba guitar with 2 p90s. Why build it? I want one I built. I want the experience. I also want a color that doesn't exist normally and some subtle features that are out of normal spec. I also want to install dummy coils in a p90 guitar that is otherwise vintage flavored. Essentially making the meanest, toughest LP I ever have seen.
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Unread 08-18-2011, 02:23 AM   #70
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I got thick skin, I can take it!

Chesh has a distictive way with words, just like a disticntive design style.

I'm not a fan of the Bo Diddly meets NASA look, and I couldn't play the UTAH as I'd knock the switches and I'd impale myself on one of those beautifully executed and finished corners.

as to what I make, I make 'em because I enjoy it. people even buy them from me so SOME folks like what I do.

there are kits out there with multipiece laminated necks I'm sure.......

haven't seen a fan fret kit yet though.... maybe that's a niche I could open up for myself!

what is important is that I like what I do.

my next "for me " build could well be a variax powered thruneck fan fret strat with some crazy woods.

if Chesh could direct me to a kit for that I'd be grateful!
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Unread 08-18-2011, 04:42 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratopastor View Post
To me this comes across as unnecessarily unkind to Martin. He took a swipe at your taste but not your skills IMO. (As for myself, I love the idea of a state-shaped guitar.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq View Post
Agreed. I have half a mind to close the thread over that hostility.

Not liking an aesthetic is one thing. I don't like strats, gtrdave doesn't like sgs. I don't happen to like squared off guitars or switches myself. That says nothing to the quality of anyones work. I happen to like a minimalist guitar. An LP jr is about my ideal. You know what that means? It means I like Lp Jrs. Thats it.

But being unkind is a choice that one makes.
Oh, I disagree.

Look more closely at his and gtrdave's comments. Did they ever once say that they didn't particularly care for any square guitar aesthetics, or talk about how the Utah was fairly well executed, but simply not for them?

No. They talked about choking down barf. Consider again their comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrdave View Post
Utah = *barf*
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
ok, actually first reaction was reswallowing the little bit of sick in the back of my throat....
Exactly how does any of this actually speak to differences of opinion in design aesthetics (apart from the Utah making them want to puke)? Also, especially in Martin's case, how does any of this speak only to design aesthetics and not reference execution of said aesthetics? Look at the next statement he made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
SECOND reaction is that the 5 way switch is going to get knocked EVERY strum . . . . .
That's a reference towards, it may be argued, skill and execution, particularly in the design stage. It has nothing to do with whether the guitar was square, round, Utah shaped, California shaped, Texas shaped, Hello Kitty shaped, and had everything to do with poor design considerations and whatnot. And this coming from a luthier who would pay attention to such matters and considerations.

Also, it might be added, that all of this was done in a manner of hostility, devoid of any Christian-like behavior. Remember, I only now just got back. Granted, while these are public forums, being that I wasn't around at the time, and it had been acknowledged that I hadn't been around, all this was pretty much done "behind my back".

Keep in mind, I didn't make one single mention about the Utah or any other project in this thread until I discovered those comments. GtrDave and Martin chose to disparage me and my work in public when they thought they could get away with it. I mean, do you really think that they would say to my face "Chesh, your guitar makes me want to barf"?

So, we have a little flame fest done at the expense of me and my work. Weren't those statements also "unnecessarily unkind towards me", to paraphrase Stratopastor? Wasn't choosing to disparage me in public, with my proverbial back turned, a choice? One that two "Christian" brothers chose to make with complete volition?

As for comments on Martin's work, the takeaway from that is "he who lives in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". I've been familiar with Martin's work in the past from his various posts, and I always thought well enough of him, and was in fact glad to see him join CGR a number of years ago, being that it was good to get more luthiers and guitar techs in the picture. I even liked his work at first, especially some of his experimental designs with doublenecks and whatnot.

It was, however, after his rip on me, and needing to "reswallow that little bit of sick in the back of [his] throat" that got me wondering. Was this the same Martin? I thought so. I didn't remember him being uncharitable or disingenuous like that, but I thought it was the same guy I knew from a number of years ago, so I clicked on his link to his lutherie blog. Well, when I got there, and saw his latest work, I genuinely wasn't impressed. Exactly what gives him the right and credentials to have a go at me when his stuff wasn't exactly setting the world on fire. Mind you, I didn't have to "reswallow" any "sick in the back of my throat", but I did think he was overstepping his bounds and being rather prideful and egotistical to think he could look down on another's work with scorn.

Remember, this had nothing to do with square guitars. It had to do with lutherie work so nauseating that he had to choke back a sick feeling in the back of his throat. How on earth can that statement, or GtrDave's for that matter, be edifying on any level?

So, I come back to the Guitar forum - coming home, in essence - and see people ripping on me in my absence. Very unChristian like. Exactly where in the Bible did Christ advocate doing that sort of thing.

As for His response to the Pharisees, He wasn't terribly warm and fuzzy. He called them out. I did the same.

And in case anyone wonders, no, I'm not offended nor crestfallen that someone didn't like my square guitar. I really don't care. I made it for me, I like showing it off when we have "what gear do you have threads", and perhaps blogging on the work I'm doing, but it isn't my only guitar project, and I don't think I'm lighting the world on fire by talking about it. I just feel entitled to talk about it as much as anyone else here is entitled to talk about their PRS's, Gibsons, and Fenders.

Is that a fair statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
I got thick skin, I can take it!
An ideal characteristic around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
Chesh has a distinctive way with words, just like a distinctive design style.
It's been said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
I'm not a fan of the Bo Diddly meets NASA look,
You wouldn't be the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
I couldn't play the UTAH as I'd knock the switches and I'd impale myself on one of those beautifully executed and finished corners.
Thank you for saying so.

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Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
as to what I make, I make 'em because I enjoy it. people even buy them from me so SOME folks like what I do.
Well, frankly, for a while, I was one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
what is important is that I like what I do.
And that's why I do it as well - NASA styled Bo Diddley's and all. But more importantly, I don't go around taking a piss on what other people do that's important to them.

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Originally Posted by martinedwards View Post
my next "for me " build could well be a variax powered thruneck fan fret strat with some crazy woods.

if Chesh could direct me to a kit for that I'd be grateful!
I don't quite follow that part, and I'm not sure if you're being facetious or not, but Warmoth has Variax bodies in the shape of Strats and Teles, and a fan fret neck would simply be a function of using a bolt on neck. As for neck-thrus, I don't doubt that you could do all those things if that was your intent.

The point I'm making is is that none of us, and I do mean none of us, has the right or the privilege to randomly disparage other people's work. Whether it's their particular aesthetic, or the execution thereof. There by the Grace of God goes all of us, and it doesn't pay to start turmoil and conflict just for the sake of gratifying our own egos. (EGO = Edging God Out)

And, to that end, if we choose to throw stones whilst living in glass houses, we get to be careful, because sooner or later someone is going to throw a stone right back at us.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 08-18-2011 at 04:54 AM.
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Unread 08-18-2011, 05:56 AM   #72
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Chesh, Here is the difference.

1) The comments said nothing about execution. They said they didn't like it essentially. You however made a personal attack on someones work. Rainer has made similar comments about one of my design choices. Guess what, I still think I chose something I like and I don't care. We all like different things. I think the Utah is about the opposite of what I want in a guitar currently. You know what? That should not matter to you in the least if it serves you well. My choices might be HIDEOUS to you.

Your statement about execution is way off base. There have been discussions in the past few months on how the Tele, strat, and LP all get in various players ways. Again, put a switch wherever you want. Somebody on here is going to accidentally knock it if you put it anywhere any remotely akin to normal.

2) I am an admin here and I have to make judgment calls. You stepped over the line when you attacked someone's workmanship. That is too far.

3) You are not Jesus Christ, and they are not the pharisees. You are a user here. Be nice, and be kind to other users. As an admin, in an admin role I am saying you stepped over a line with a personal attack. Don't do it, Period.

I won't let others do it to you either. Chesh, You stepped way over the line.
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Unread 08-18-2011, 06:03 AM   #73
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We good?

I'd like to see this thread continue in a vein of compassionate discussion about versatile guitars really. Would be a shame for it be shut down.

Anyway, I've been considering whether one man's versatility is another man's superfluousity. Chesh, Utah, for me, is the crossing over into unnecessary amounts of variation but that kind of versatility is perhaps something that is part of you having played for a long time and needed your guitar to do that many different things.

To my mind, the versatility of a guitar is reached when you feel you can't play everything you want to play with that guitar and the setup you use it with. I think that's why I'd advocate finding a main guitar that most suits your primary style of playing and then get other guitars to fill the gaps. Definitely IMO only.

Btw, we've all talked about types of guitar, but what about woods? What kind of wood is most versatile?
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Unread 08-18-2011, 06:19 AM   #74
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To my mind, the versatility of a guitar is reached when you feel you can't play everything you want to play with that guitar and the setup you use it with. I think that's why I'd advocate finding a main guitar that most suits your primary style of playing and then get other guitars to fill the gaps. Definitely IMO only.

Btw, we've all talked about types of guitar, but what about woods? What kind of wood is most versatile?
I am going to venture a wild guess that might get me disowned. Poplar. I don't like it as well as Limba, but I think it might be the most versatile.
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Unread 08-18-2011, 10:02 AM   #75
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I won't let others do it to you either.
Well, with all due respect Bill, I didn't see you take them to task either. I mean, seriously, nausea? Barf? Choking back puke? Reswallowing sickness? How is that edifying in anyway? How is that Christ-like?

How can that be seen as anything other than hostility, and taking a swing at someone when he is not looking? Remember, I wasn't here to defend myself.

And, again, fwiw, I really don't care if they like it or not. They can disagree all day long, but being so viscerally critical and maligning behind my back? Take that same conversation, change the subject, and set it in a hallway of where you go to church just after a service, where a few acquaintances are speaking ill of someone behind their backs. A conversation that you know would hush-up immediately if said subject of that conversation rounded a corner and walked past them.

As a Christian, would you show the same consternation, or would you just blow it off, saying "whatever"? Is that what Christ calls us to do?

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Chesh, You stepped way over the line.
Well, perhaps so. Perhaps not. If so, I apologize. However, that said, understand, Martin opened that door himself. "Of those who are given more, more is expected." If the "choking down vomit" comment had come from some 13 year old kid who thinks his Squier Affinity is just the last word in guitar craftsmanship ("dude, we're talkin' total pwnage!"), then I really wouldn't care. I would expect that coming from a kid like that. But from a 44 year old professional luthier who is respected here and looked up to as a go-to guy for authoritative information? Not only his words, but his attitude and demeanor carry more weight. The same can be said for GtrDave.

Ergo, the little kids and other punters can ramble on all day long about how square guitars suck, or they don't like too many buttons and switches, but for the "elder statesmen" of the CGR, I thought such behavior we beneath them. I guess I was wrong. (Besides, you've been saying the same of me. Why are you not holding them to that same standard?)

Again, remember, they said this behind my back. And this sort of thing has happened before as well, which is sad. Say what you want, but say it to my face, or not at all.

I thought CGR had the potential to be different. Jury's still out.

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 08-18-2011 at 11:54 AM.
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