Go Back   Christian Guitar Forum > Music & Musicians > Logistics > Worship Leading
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Arcade Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-03-2011, 02:56 PM   #61
Registered User
 

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesteve View Post
...I've seen pastors that work 40-60 hours a week doing things around the church and getting ready for Sunday. I don't think I've ever seen a worship team that puts in more than one or two practices a week towards the Sunday service.
This seems to bring us back to the definition of a church musician as a "worship team member." I must not be communicating clearly.

With that definition, I agree with what you're saying. However, this was not my intent or definition when I began this thread. Maybe I can do better next time...

cotten

cotten is offline  
Sponsored Links
Old 06-03-2011, 05:34 PM   #62
Semper ubi sub ubi!
 
1/2-Fast Player's Avatar
 

Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,644
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotten View Post
. However, this was not my intent or definition when I began this thread. Maybe I can do better next time...

cotten

Don't bet on it. God has given us a gift for taking virtually any thread off onto unimaginable tangents where no OP has gone before...
__________________
I dream of a better world where chickens can cross roads without having their motives questioned.

1/2
1/2-Fast Player is offline  
Old 06-03-2011, 11:35 PM   #63
...
Super Moderator
 
thesteve's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 29,180
Send a message via AIM to thesteve
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotten View Post
This seems to bring us back to the definition of a church musician as a "worship team member." I must not be communicating clearly.

With that definition, I agree with what you're saying. However, this was not my intent or definition when I began this thread. Maybe I can do better next time...

cotten
I understand what you're calling a "church musician" is what most people would call a music minister, at least in terms of the roles you've described thus far. The response you quoted was in response to another member, which is probably why it doesn't jive with your definition.

In fact, if you look at what I wrote you'll note that it makes no references to church musicians, only worship team contributions as a whole.
__________________
We've all got ideas. We are the music makers. We make money to buy things, and write down words.

I'm a podcaster
thesteve is offline  
Old 06-04-2011, 07:28 AM   #64
Hey ya'll, watch this!
 
jeepnstein's Avatar
 

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,260
We pay a worship leader. He's a staff position and worth every dime. Basically his role is to train and mentor all of us on how to actually implement a worship ministry. I have no doubt that as soon as he finds a preaching position he's gone. There's no way he can raise a family on what he's getting from us. I've been paid a couple of times when it was obvious that I was putting in way too many hours and the Elders felt I should at least be able to take my wife out to dinner for the trouble. Some times the church will spring for a bit of gear for one of us, which is really nice. We do not have to pay musicians and I don't think we would except under extraordinary circumstances.
jeepnstein is offline  
Old 06-07-2011, 12:09 PM   #65
Registered User
 

Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 171
It's sad that this is even a topic.... and it may be a sign of the level of leadership in our church that we cannot identify and motivate genuine lovers of Christ to responsibly serve using their spiritual gifts. Our congregation is 400 and growing. We only have 4 full time staff (Lead Pastor, myself [Associate Worship Pastor], Associate Youth Pastor, and our Secretary [who should be making more than all of us combined, btw]). We do not pay our volunteer servant team leaders nor do we pay our volunteer servant team members (Ushers, Greeters, Audio/Visual, Hospitality, Parking Team, Worship Team, etc.), and we are blessed with about 90% of these people who are responsible, capable, amazing people!! We do, however, pay our children/nursery workers, but that is because we have a daycare/preschool with full-time workers, and it is part of their job descriptions (btw, I hope my wife or any other person who works with the children of the church doesn't see the part where you classify working with children as less important than playing music. Remember, we are replaceable by an mp3 and one person singing, they are NOT. Sometimes you have to fill in the gaps with people who may not be able or ready, but the majority of your important positions should be filled with people who feel a calling and a desire to be there, not to draw a check. I have only had one member of the worship band miss one week in almost three years and that was for the death of his father (we do get some scheduled weeks off collectively where we bring in a Tomlin or the like). Here in the NON-megachurch world of ministry, we relate to the people we serve with, and we disciple them, after spending quite a bit of time identifying those who are called to do what is needed, and our congregation responds so amazingly!! I think it may be important to ask yourself, if you stopped paying your musicians, would you even be able to have a worship service this Sunday?
tdk8709 is offline  
Old 06-07-2011, 12:39 PM   #66
assistant regional mgr.
 
Dwight Schrute's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Scranton, PA
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk8709 View Post
Remember, we are replaceable by an mp3 and one person singing, they are NOT.
nah - just toss in a Veggie Tales DVD and the kids can watch themselves

*that was me joking, by the way. if we tried that, we'd have to find out what our fire insurance policy covers, first hand.

you bring up a good point at the end - if these people were no longer paid, would they leave? it's questions like that which reveal the heart of who we are paying.
Dwight Schrute is offline  
Old 06-07-2011, 12:44 PM   #67
Registered User
 

Joined: Apr 2011
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 171
fire AND flood insurance... lol We are truly blessed with great teachers that know how to love children!! On a side note, we may try some silly songs with Larry in worship this Sunday...
tdk8709 is offline  
Old 06-07-2011, 01:28 PM   #68
assistant regional mgr.
 
Dwight Schrute's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Scranton, PA
Posts: 3,418
I'd show up but I seem to have misplaced my hairbrush
Dwight Schrute is offline  
Old 06-10-2011, 10:54 PM   #69
Banned
 

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 28
It's tough to say, just like not paying a pastor. You get what you pay for and music is half the reason most people go to a specific church believe it or not. So if you half arse it your membership will reflect it.

In my opinion if you pay the pastor you should pay the worship leader just purely for qualities sake. With that said neither one of them should be making a penny over the average wage in their area. Be an example.
theguyy is offline  
Old 06-12-2011, 01:55 PM   #70
Semper ubi sub ubi!
 
1/2-Fast Player's Avatar
 

Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 1,644
Thread has been split and the pastor salary discussion moved to General Discussion.
__________________
I dream of a better world where chickens can cross roads without having their motives questioned.

1/2
1/2-Fast Player is offline  
Old 06-12-2011, 07:14 PM   #71
assistant regional mgr.
 
Dwight Schrute's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Scranton, PA
Posts: 3,418
so you get what you pay for - but don't pay them more than average? the logic escapes me.

I disagree that you get what you pay for, you get what God gives. more money does not equal better people. this rings true for higher paid pastors, too - is Benny or Joyce the best pastor we can hope for? theology and personal character is overshadowed by the cameras and lights.

you want to pay your team, good and fine. but don't generalize that what works for you is the standard for everyone. I know for a fact not one single worship leader at my church would accept a dime. for us, it has never been about the money - it has been about worshipping God. someone asked this earlier and I find it very telling of the heart behind the matter - pay them now, and if you stop paying them tomorrow, would they just pack up and leave to "make money" somewhere else? (note I didn't say worship somewhere else).

when I was a gigging musician, the general rule was the bigger the draw, the bigger the money pot every night. are we using that mentality to measure the relative worth of our worship team? bring in better musicians to draw a bigger crowd and nail the offering plate so we can afford to keep building our musical empire? I am disgusted on so many levels with this.
Dwight Schrute is offline  
Old 06-13-2011, 01:36 AM   #72
Banned
 

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 28
You really don't think you get what you pay for? So if I tell 1 guy to mow the church lawn all year for 100k and tell another guy to do it for free it has the exact same likelihood of getting done by either man? Ok must be fun where you live on fantasy earth cuz the earth I'm from people still act human. Call it sad, call it depressing, call it whatever but you must also call it reality.

As far as your church goes, even your supposed holier then thou worship pastor might need help if he/she were handed 40+ hours of work to do per week, which easily happens doing worship for a church of 5,000+. Getting paid for your hard work does not make you less of a christian; in fact, it is actually biblical. The problem is it is often abused, with every problem in the church being solved with money instead of faith and church staff being overpaid/vainly wasteful. Obviously there's plenty of valid arguments against it, none of which you presented.
theguyy is offline  
Old 06-13-2011, 01:44 AM   #73
...
Super Moderator
 
thesteve's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 29,180
Send a message via AIM to thesteve
Quote:
Originally Posted by theguyy View Post
You really don't think you get what you pay for? So if I tell 1 guy to mow the church lawn all year for 100k and tell another guy to do it for free it has the exact same likelihood of getting done by either man? Ok must be fun where you live on fantasy earth cuz the earth I'm from people still act human. Call it sad, call it depressing, call it whatever but you must also call it reality.
While I don't really agree with the "you get what you pay for" mentality in totality, can you explain what you mean when you say "you get what you pay for" then follow it with saying that you shouldn't pay a worship leader more than the average salary for their area?
__________________
We've all got ideas. We are the music makers. We make money to buy things, and write down words.

I'm a podcaster
thesteve is offline  
Old 06-13-2011, 05:56 AM   #74
assistant regional mgr.
 
Dwight Schrute's Avatar
 

Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Scranton, PA
Posts: 3,418
I second what thesteve says. how is what you are saying logical? you can make up silly scenarios about mowing the lawn all you want but your cup isn't holding water. believe it or not, some people are motivated by more than money.

I get a kick out of people who attend megachurches and seem to think that is the norm. statistically speaking, they are in the vast minority. if you have someone in full time ministry, by all means pay them if you can afford them. but understand that 94% of all churches in America are under 500 members and cannot afford to pay full time worship leaders. and as a worship leader in a church like that, I'd be offended by being offered money when in all honesty I'd rather see that money invested somewhere else. I was in leadership at a megachurch for many years, I understand the mentality quite well. I found that the large influx of money had a direct affect on what was taught, as well as the mentality of both leadership and membership. I left for a "normal" church of under 500 people, statistically speaking. I've seen both sides, and was rather shocked to find that what I regarded as "normal" at the megachurch was actually not normal at all. I confess up front that I have some level of baggage on megachurches so take what I say with a grain of salt and please forgive me if I'm getting snide with my posts. let's just agree that what works for you doesn't work for me and call it a day.
Dwight Schrute is offline  
Old 06-13-2011, 07:11 AM   #75
Registered User
 
pooleman0's Avatar
 

Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Lisbon CT
Posts: 571
I spend about 10 hours a week either preparing for worship on Sunday or actually leading. I don't get paid a dime. If the church did pay me, either a stipend or a regular salary, it would not change how I did things. I do what I do because I love doing it. "Theguyy" seems to be saying that a large salary equals better worship. We had great worship this weekend. How would it had been better if I got a paycheck afterwords? Would more people have raised their hands during worship, would more people have gone to the altar? Would there be a big difference in our worship if I got paid $1000 a week? Would more people find the Lord every week? What if I got paid $10,000 a week? Would the Spirit manifest itself as a cloud in the room as it did in the days of Moses? If they paid me a $100,000 a week would Jesus come down and worship with us just because my worship be be so wonderful, now made perfect by the power of a salary increase? I know these are extreme examples but this seems to be where the logic of "you get what you pay for" leads. Some jobs can be performed by unbelievers or new christians, such as mowing the law, where this 'principle' would apply. Other jobs such as ministering to the children, preaching, or leading worship, should not be affected by the amount of cash they receive.

If my ability to lead worship improved based on the fact that I got paid, that would mean that I was holding back prior to getting paid. In that case I should be removed as a worship leader because clearly my heart and motivation was in the wrong place. And don't get me wrong. I would love to get paid, even $50 a week just to cover gas and wear and tear on my vehicles and equipment, time spent ministering to my team members. But I would continue to do what I do even if I had to PAY the church to do it. I love leading worship, I love being sensitive to the Holy Spirits direction and steering our worship in directions I never intended or planned on based on what God is telling us. I love watching the people connect with our Lord. And I love being a part of that process. I get itchy being in the congregation, I want to be leading, playing. No amount of money would ever change that.
pooleman0 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:32 AM.


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2