[bread man]

I'm sorry I always make threads like this so long, I never know what to leave out.

I'm confused about how to deal with the situation I've found myself in and I'd appreciate some advice from anyone who has dealt with anything like it or can see the situation from a different angle.

A year ago, I was dating a girl I really liked, who is a couple years younger than me, and who comes from a difficult background with an alcoholic, abusive father. A few months into it, she decided to end things, and the reason she gave me was she felt it had moved too quickly for her, though by most people's standards I'd say it had moved quite slowly (we were still sort of 'just hanging out' after about 5 months, and physically never went further than holding hands). I realise now that pretty much anything would have been too fast for her, as she really just wasn't ready for any kind of relationship at all.

Following that, we still hung out quite a bit for 3-4 months, during which she told me a few times that she eventually wanted to get back together. After a while I noticed she was avoiding me; not returning calls or repeatedly dropping out at the last minute when we had plans to do something. I got sick of it after a while and told her that, at which point she admitted that she never really wanted to get back together because she had a bunch of issues to do with trusting people and that she felt far away from God. I told her I thought the two things were obviously related, and after a lot of talk we resolved to meet regularly to talk through some of the stuff (I posted a thread asking for advice about this at the time).

Anyway, that happened once, and seemed to go pretty well from my perspective and from what she told me. But after that it was the same thing; she'd not talk to me and drop out at the last minute when we'd organised to do something. At this point I felt that the only thing left to do was to give up pushing her to talk about those issues, because it seemed obvious that there was nothing more I could do to get her to open up to me or to anyone else. I stopped trying and after a while I realised we hadn't talked for ages. I didn't particularly want to talk to her, because I was starting to feel hurt about often she'd been dishonest or had rejected the offers of friendship I was trying to make (all of which was hard, because I still had feelings for her), but I wasn't really avoiding her either.

After a couple months of that, I decided that I didn't want things to end that way, so I wrote her a letter explaining that it made me sad to see her always pushing people away who wanted to help, and always seeing her put on a smile for people who wanted to be friends with her when I knew what was underneath. I told her that I'd run out of ideas about how to have any sort of friendship with her that wasn't dishonest, and I told her that I hated seeing how she'd continually pushed me to the sidelines every time I made an attempt to get her to talk about and face reality (all of which she had previously asked me to do with her). She ignored it for 3-4 weeks until I asked her if she was ever going to say anything about it, at which point she wrote me back a really angry letter saying that I'd brought all of it on myself, that it wasn't her fault I couldn't understand her happiness, and that I was projecting my own problems onto her.

After that I asked my pastor for advice, because though I wasn't surprised by the response, I really had no idea what to say back to it. He talked it through with me and I ended up writing her a really long letter back that talked about some of my own struggles and how I didn't want to see her end up like some other people I know who push people out of their lives and are miserable as a result.

I didn't get a reply for a month, at which point I talked to my best friend, my pastor, and my parents, and they all listened and felt sorry about the situation, but basically all told me they thought there wasn't anything more I could do. Then, a month later I got a short email from her saying she was sorry for being dishonest, for not spending time with me when she said she would, for being so mean about it later on, and for not apologising earlier. It didn't respond to much of what I'd said, it just apologised for everything that hurt me and asked for forgiveness.

I had really thought that she would never talk to me again, so it was a surprise, and I wrote back saying that I'd forgiven her but that I knew we probably wouldn't be able to be friends the way we were because I needed space. I said this because I knew at that point that she'd never really be honest and trust me again, and I believe that whatever the cost of that, it's better than having a friendship where two people pretend that nothing is wrong.

Sorry for the long explanation; here is what I'm struggling with.

When I see her around, I really start to feel guilty, and that leads me to feel angry with myself and sometimes angry with her. I feel guilty because she is still stuck in the same pattern of burying her problems and feelings until she isn't even consciously aware of them, and that is a horrible place to be. I feel angry at myself because I feel like somewhere along the line, I should have been able to do more, I should have done something different or approached it in another way, and if I had, maybe she would have started to face some of her issues. Sometimes, after I've felt that, I start to feel angry at her for putting me in this position in the first place. I passed the point months ago where I could ever see myself wanting to be in a relationship with her again, but that, of course, will never negate the fact that I care about what happens to her.

To be quite honest, I've never really had to face anything like this before, and I don't know how to deal with it, but it seems like an unhealthy pattern of thinking. At the very least, I've spent the last few months feeling horrible every time I see her (which has been at church every sunday at least), and I don't want to keep feeling that way about something I can't do anything about. Or at least, that's how it seems.

I guess it's not so much a forgiveness issue; forgiveness is extremely difficult, but with forgiveness it's fairly clear to me what needs to be done. I think, if I'm assessing myself accurately, it's more about letting go of what I can't change without ending up resenting her and/or hardening myself towards her on the one hand or continually being angry at myself on thhe other.

Any thoughts or ideas on this? I'm moving an hour away today, and I know that'll help with distance at least.

[tlj009]

I think that you are partially on the right track. You obviously have to let it go. You can't save everyone and you really shouldn't try. All you can do is help. And by help I mean just that, help. Not do it for them. A person has to make an effort in their self to change, otherwise anything you can do isn't going to help.

What you need to address is this attitude of being angry with her. Why be angry with her? Because she put you in a position to feel bad for her? You did that yourself. She didn't ask for help. And even if she did, you walked into it of your own free will. The best thing to do is walk away when you realize that there is nothing that you can do that will help and a whole lot that you can do to hurt. But I see no reason to be angry about it. Now, I have heard people say that you can't help how you feel about something, but I believe you can. You can make a choice to be angry or not. It is just a choice that you must make.

[Rainer.]

Check your PMs.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by tlj009

What you need to address is this attitude of being angry with her. Why be angry with her? Because she put you in a position to feel bad for her? You did that yourself. She didn't ask for help. And even if she did, you walked into it of your own free will. The best thing to do is walk away when you realize that there is nothing that you can do that will help and a whole lot that you can do to hurt. But I see no reason to be angry about it. Now, I have heard people say that you can't help how you feel about something, but I believe you can. You can make a choice to be angry or not. It is just a choice that you must make.

It might be a choice to blame someone for something, but I don't think that the feeling of emotional pain is a choice.

I think in especially cases where a relationship is breaking, feelings can be incredibly irrational outside of logical thought and decision. You can choose to not blame her for anything, sure, but it will take time for the emotional scars to heal, and before that time, it's probably inevitable that thinking about her will cause a lot of pain and frustrating thoughts, for which distance is probably a better solution than trying to forcibly control your emotions when she's around.

[tlj009]

It might be a choice to blame someone for something, but I don't think that the feeling of emotional pain is a choice.

I think in especially cases where a relationship is breaking, feelings can be incredibly irrational outside of logical thought and decision. You can choose to not blame her for anything, sure, but it will take time for the emotional scars to heal, and before that time, it's probably inevitable that thinking about her will cause a lot of pain and frustrating thoughts, for which distance is probably a better solution than trying to forcibly control your emotions when she's around.

You are probably right.

[bread man]

Originally Posted by tlj009

What you need to address is this attitude of being angry with her. Why be angry with her? Because she put you in a position to feel bad for her? You did that yourself. She didn't ask for help. And even if she did, you walked into it of your own free will. The best thing to do is walk away when you realize that there is nothing that you can do that will help and a whole lot that you can do to hurt. But I see no reason to be angry about it. Now, I have heard people say that you can't help how you feel about something, but I believe you can. You can make a choice to be angry or not. It is just a choice that you must make.

Thanks for the reply, man.

I need to address it, definitely. The reason is different though. I mean, I might have some anger towards her for putting me in that position, but I knew what I was getting into when I agreed to help her. I don't blame her for hurting me, not fully; I chose a lot of this. The source of it is more about her and her own wellbeing. If I'm hurt by what she's done to me, then sure, I get angry, but in the end I'm not the one who's pushing people out of my life or being selfish or keeping everyone at a distance. The biggest reason she gave me for treating me that way was that she couldn't believe anyone would want to help her without wanting something back. She even said she was wrong to think that, but she's not doing anything to change.

I mean, if you go into every relationship in your life with that much suspicion, the possibility of any kind of intimacy with anyone is pretty small. And basically, that really sucks for her, and that's where my anger comes from, because ultimately she's much worse off than I am. I can see that she could have close people who care about her, and she could be that for other people, but she doesn't want it, and ultimately, underneath it all, she's miserable and angry and hurt, and I don't want her to be.

I'm not sure if that would change your advice, and ultimately the problem is still the same; I'm upset about something I can't change.

Originally Posted by Rainer.

Check your PMs.

I'm writing back, thanks man.

[tlj009]

Thanks for the reply, man.

I need to address it, definitely. The reason is different though. I mean, I might have some anger towards her for putting me in that position, but I knew what I was getting into when I agreed to help her. I don't blame her for hurting me, not fully; I chose a lot of this. The source of it is more about her and her own wellbeing. If I'm hurt by what she's done to me, then sure, I get angry, but in the end I'm not the one who's pushing people out of my life or being selfish or keeping everyone at a distance. The biggest reason she gave me for treating me that way was that she couldn't believe anyone would want to help her without wanting something back. She even said she was wrong to think that, but she's not doing anything to change.

I mean, if you go into every relationship in your life with that much suspicion, the possibility of any kind of intimacy with anyone is pretty small. And basically, that really sucks for her, and that's where my anger comes from, because ultimately she's much worse off than I am. I can see that she could have close people who care about her, and she could be that for other people, but she doesn't want it, and ultimately, underneath it all, she's miserable and angry and hurt, and I don't want her to be.

I'm not sure if that would change your advice, and ultimately the problem is still the same; I'm upset about something I can't change.

Here is how I see it. You want her to conform to the way that you see the world and she is resisting. Your way is obviously better. You want nothing but the best for her. And she is resisting. This makes you frustrated that you are doing all you can for her and she either doesn't care, doesn't want to change, and you don't know how to make her want to change.

So, my question is can you care about her if she doesn't change? If she stays the way that she is, will you still care enough to be her friend? I can understand that you would feel bad for her. But I don't think that you should allow yourself to be frustrated or angry with her. I think that you need to accept her for who she is. I think that you need to be friends with her without trying to change her at all. And with your relationship on a firm foundation of friendship, it may be easier to understand her worldview, her concerns, her fears, etc. Basically understand why she does the things she does. Knowing that she has an alcoholic, abusive father and knowing that she has trust issues, is really different than really understanding her. And perhaps, being a friend who accepts her the way she is, she will see a better way in how you live your life and she will decide to change when and however she wants to. So the question is, can you accept her the way she is, that you could very likely be in the same state she is in if things had happened differently in your life, that it is her decision if, when, and how she will change, and still be a friend to her? To me, it is normal and even admirable that you should be concerned about her and want the best for her. But frustration and anger toward her would seem to come more from selfish desires within yourself basically making it about you and not about her. I don't say that to be mean or accusatory. I think that everyone suffers from it to some extent. And this situation is enough to cause anyone to have that same reaction.

I have been thinking a great deal about how we live our lives. We go to work in an office or a factory. We go home and spend a couple of hours with our family, sleep, and go back to work again the next day. We have money, a nice house, air conditioning, all kinds of good things. Someone on a farm 100 years ago may not have air conditioning, their house may leak, they may have to walk outside to the outhouse in the middle of the night. But are we better off than they were? Most would say yes. But truthfully, I doubt that we, as a people, are any happier now than they were back then. I say all of this, because I don't think that it is good for you to see her as a victim or someone who needs to be saved. I don't know but she may actually be happier with a minimum number of people that she is close to and trusts. There really isn't anything wrong with that. I am not saying that she doesn't have her problems, but being a friend does not entail "fixing" her, but instead accepting her.

But, in the end, it is extremely hard to be friends after you have dated. You may not be able to let go the possibility of have a romantic relationship and she may not be able to accept that you have let it go. And the pain is going to be there for a while regardless. The pain is understandable. Even frustration and anger to an extent. But you need to understand that these emotions are likely about you and not about her.

[bread man]

I've been thinking about what you said, and here's what I want to say in response. I don't expect you to answer all of it or anything, but working through this stuff helps me work through my thoughts.

Originally Posted by tlj009

Here is how I see it. You want her to conform to the way that you see the world and she is resisting. Your way is obviously better. You want nothing but the best for her. And she is resisting. This makes you frustrated that you are doing all you can for her and she either doesn't care, doesn't want to change, and you don't know how to make her want to change.

So, my question is can you care about her if she doesn't change? If she stays the way that she is, will you still care enough to be her friend?

The most immediate answer is of course yes. I pray for her often; usually that she would do well in her studies, that she would have a good home life, and that she would make some friends with some people she can trust.

I guess the question I have is what do you do when someone who says they want to be friends works hard to sabotage that friendship? What does it mean to be a friend to someone who refuses to trust you, or who tells you in words that they care about you and want to be friends, but repeatedly treats you with unexplained indifference and even hostility?

I can understand that you would feel bad for her. But I don't think that you should allow yourself to be frustrated or angry with her. I think that you need to accept her for who she is. I think that you need to be friends with her without trying to change her at all.

What does it mean to do that? Is it possible for a friendship to exist under those conditions? Is it a friendship if I see her living in a way that I feel is destructive and do nothing about it? To that end, what is a friendship? What is its purpose? If it's just caring about someone and wanting good for them, then sure, I can be her friend, but I feel like there's something else at play in the idea of friendship.

These aren't rhetorical questions, and they aren't meant to be argumentative. I was trying to answer them a few months ago. I mean, I have a friend who gets pretty drunk a lot, and I tell him regularly that I think what he does is destructive. He still does it, but so far what I've said hasn't hurt our friendship; in fact it has probably improved it. His behaviour is destructive, but it doesn't directly push people out of his life, and I guess that's where the difference is.

And with your relationship on a firm foundation of friendship, it may be easier to understand her worldview, her concerns, her fears, etc. Basically understand why she does the things she does. Knowing that she has an alcoholic, abusive father and knowing that she has trust issues, is really different than really understanding her. And perhaps, being a friend who accepts her the way she is, she will see a better way in how you live your life and she will decide to change when and however she wants to. So the question is, can you accept her the way she is, that you could very likely be in the same state she is in if things had happened differently in your life, that it is her decision if, when, and how she will change, and still be a friend to her?

Yeah, I guess I would need to know what the purpose of being a friend is before I could answer that. And absolutely, yes, I realise I could be in the same state if things had been different for me. And I know that there are weaknesses and problems in my life that I have because of the things that have happened to me, and I am glad to have friends who are friends despite those things.

To me, it is normal and even admirable that you should be concerned about her and want the best for her. But frustration and anger toward her would seem to come more from selfish desires within yourself basically making it about you and not about her. I don't say that to be mean or accusatory. I think that everyone suffers from it to some extent. And this situation is enough to cause anyone to have that same reaction.

Yeah, understood.

I don't know but she may actually be happier with a minimum number of people that she is close to and trusts. There really isn't anything wrong with that. I am not saying that she doesn't have her problems, but being a friend does not entail "fixing" her, but instead accepting her.

What if there isn't anyone at all? I mean, at some point after we had broken up she told me that I was the only real friend she had; and that was one of the reasons she gave for leading me on or whatever, that she didn't want to lose her only friend. I do accept her; I mean I'm not standing around saying that she must act in a certain way, or else I won't care about her anymore.

But, in the end, it is extremely hard to be friends after you have dated. You may not be able to let go the possibility of have a romantic relationship and she may not be able to accept that you have let it go. And the pain is going to be there for a while regardless. The pain is understandable. Even frustration and anger to an extent. But you need to understand that these emotions are likely about you and not about her.

Yeah, I think this is one of the biggest problems we had; she was afraid that I wouldn't want to be a friend if she said she didn't want a relationship, but the bigger problem was that she wasn't willing or able to see me as just her friend. She kept treating me as someone who was trying to push her into some kind of relationship, even when I told her that I could accept it, even when I told her I didn't want a relationship with her at all.

And now I'm wondering if maybe it's just that that's the big obstacle. Perhaps a lot of the frustration came/comes because she couldn't or didn't want to be friends, and she either didn't want to say it or (more likely) didn't have the self-awareness to recognise it. In that sense, I guess it is more about me; I can handle being rejected romantically, but it's not very often that I've had to deal with being rejected outright.

I don't know, I'm just sort of thinking now.

[Rainer.]

I would probably just say to remember that she has irrational thoughts and feelings towards you in all likelihood as well. Sometimes that just comes out as irrational behaviors as well. It might be incredibly difficult for her to stay friends with you, as well. I might not be reading this right, but you might need to just keep in mind that what she says might be the total truth. And that isn't at all because she's lying to you, but it might be because she doesn't have her feelings worked out at all, or she has trouble conveying them, or she feels that she is doing something that isn't hurtful when it is....