[Rutledri]

First off DADT was a bad policy period and should have never been enacted.
The question is should Homosexuals who are open with there sexuality be serving in the military or not?
I think it is problematic in particular a can of worms in a combat long term situation. Then there is the Moral issue.
Now before you dive on me as a homophobe know this I have head some really nasty dealings with organized Homosexual rights groups. You need to understand how dangerous this can be to those of faith who serve in the military now and also how it plays to the radical left's anti Christian political agenda.
We are already seeing some issues just days out from the passage of the repeal.
Officer won't sign order for troop indoctrination
If you have never directly had to deal with some of the more radical of Homosexual rights groups you have no concept of the absolute venom and psychotic hate they have towards Christians. To the point I have no doubt that some would love to see a "final solution" to the Christian" problem.
This must be watched closely as there could well be brutal anti Christian bias soon in the military as likely all will be forced to take sensitivity training" some of which can be quite offensive to those of faith.
Several quotes from our founding fathers keep ringing in my mind ever since this whole debate started.
Samuel Adams

"The Sum of all is , if we would most truly enjoy the gift of heaven,
let us become a virtuous people;then shall we both deserve and enjoy it. While on the other hand if we are universally vicious and debauched in our manners,though the form of our Constitution carries the face of the most exalted freedom, we shall in reality be the most abject slaves

Benjamin Franklin

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom.
As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters

Bottom line if we were where we should be with the Lord as a nation we would not be having this discussion!

[bobthecockroach]

You are completely incoherent. Can you rephrase?

[Rutledri]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

You are completely incoherent. Can you rephrase?

Rephrase what? That DADT is nothing but a smokescreen concealing the real issue of whether those who are openly Homosexual should serve in the military or no?
That this is part of a aggressive agenda by the radical far left to force the full acceptance of Homosexuality as a normal lifestyle on society and also to silence those who would object?
That Christian who serve in the militarily will soon find themselves under attack if the do not bow to the god of Political correctness?
Think I'm nut's
Read this
They Won’t Know What Hit Them - Magazine - The Atlantic
Seen Godly political candidates who were personal friends get hammered by this.
Or take a look at this
PFLAG: Parents, Families, & Friends of Lesbians and Gays
Note # 4

Four. Work toward full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons within their CHOSEN communities of faith.

Can you conceive just how they intend this to be accomplished?
DADT is just one part of a much much larger picture and there is more to this whole mess than most realize!

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Rutledri

I think it is problematic in particular a can of worms in a combat long term situation. Then there is the Moral issue.

The British, Canadians, Australians, French, Spanish, Germans, Swiss, Sweeds, Austrians, Isrealis and most everyone else in the free world has allowed openly homosexuals to serve in the military for decades. Can you point to some examples of how this has hurt their moral?

The study performed by the pentagon, which asked some very direct questions (read it, seriously) concluded the same.

Now before you dive on me as a homophobe know this I have head some really nasty dealings with organized Homosexual rights groups.

Huh? So if I've seen some nasty dealings with Christian groups (like say the "right to life"ers), then Christians shouldn't be allowed in the military?

Then there's white groups (KKK) and black groups (Black Panthers) so they shouldn't be let in either.

I think we are left with a military of Native American Daoists.

You need to understand how dangerous this can be to those of faith who serve in the military now and also how it plays to the radical left's anti Christian political agenda.

Ahh yes, those people who want to take the money of the rich and use it to feed the hungry and shelter the poor and provide medical care to the sick and injured... they are terribly anti-Christian aren't they?

We are already seeing some issues just days out from the passage of the repeal.
Officer won't sign order for troop indoctrination
If you have never directly had to deal with some of the more radical of Homosexual rights groups you have no concept of the absolute venom and psychotic hate they have towards Christians.

Of course, on the other hand there are the Christian homosexual rights groups... which presumably aren't anti-themselves.

Or there's the more radical Christian anti-Homoesxual groups (are you a member?) which have venom and psychotic hate towards homosexuals. Does the same standard apply?

This must be watched closely as there could well be brutal anti Christian bias soon in the military as likely all will be forced to take sensitivity training" some of which can be quite offensive to those of faith.

Tell you what: after we get the chaplains to stop evangelizing; we can discuss if anyone other than the Christians are indoctrinating the military.

Several quotes from our founding fathers keep ringing in my mind ever since this whole debate started.

I like the one from Samuel Adams. Your post is "vicious and debauched in [its] manners"

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Rutledri

Can you conceive just how they intend this to be accomplished?
DADT is just one part of a much much larger picture and there is more to this whole mess than most realize!

[sarcasm]
Oh my! You're right! It's going to be woman's suffrage all over again. They are going to want to vote, serve in the military, serve on juries, be hired by companies, get married, adopt children, own houses... In short: to be treated like human beings. What ever shall we do?
[/sarcasm]

well.. other than let them.

[irony]
I for one welcome our new homosexual overlords. I look forward to a golden era (unless gold just isn't in that year, in which case perhaps puce?) of very trendy ne military uniforms and just wonderful gardens, awesome food, and parties that are just "fabulous!"
[/irony]

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by Rutledri

That this is part of a aggressive agenda by the radical far left to force the full acceptance of Homosexuality as a normal lifestyle on society and also to silence those who would object?
That Christian who serve in the militarily will soon find themselves under attack if the do not bow to the god of Political correctness?

What does any of this mean? What does "force full acceptance" mean? What does "bow to the god of political correctness" mean? What actual, real problem are you concerned about?

[Rutledri]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

[sarcasm]
Oh my! You're right! It's going to be woman's suffrage all over again. They are going to want to vote, serve in the military, serve on juries, be hired by companies, get married, adopt children, own houses... In short: to be treated like human beings. What ever shall we do?
[/sarcasm]

well.. other than let them.

[irony]
I for one welcome our new homosexual overlords. I look forward to a golden era (unless gold just isn't in that year, in which case perhaps puce?) of very trendy ne military uniforms and just wonderful gardens, awesome food, and parties that are just "fabulous!"
[/irony]

Yep overlords is the right term. FYI on the issue # 4 above from the PFLAG group I sat on a political body in my City that was put together as the race relations round table in the 1960's.
This group came before us demanding our support for additional hate crime law.
One of the issues they were lobbing for was "hate speak" from the pulpits. They actually wanted any Pastor that preached that Homosexuality was in any way a sin to be charged with hate speech and be ARRESTED!
No joke and FYI the body was the Community Affairs Committee in Birmingham put together by the corporate community here in 1965 after all our issues. I served as a member of that body for many years.
What someone does behind closed doors is one thing and is no one business but theirs. However forcing others to accept what is a moral issue or else is another thing entirely.

[Rutledri]

Of course, on the other hand there are the Christian homosexual rights groups... which presumably aren't anti-themselves.

You mean guys like this who teach that the Law has been not just fulfilled by Christ but abolished?
YouTube - Homosexuality and the Bible - Part 1 Number 3 of 5
The ones that call themselves Christian and teach anything goes as long as it pleasures the "partner"?
These guys can be some of the most vicious and brutal anti Evangelical Christian hate groups on the planet!
Are you a member of one of these "churches" by chance?
How about if we are going to continue this direction of discussion we take it to a thread of it's own?
While this is related to the topic of DADT it's now getting off the subject a little and taking on it's own life here.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Rutledri

That this is part of a aggressive agenda by the radical far left to force the full acceptance of Homosexuality as a normal lifestyle on society and also to silence those who would object?

Before I really respond to your posts, I will say that I am, for the first time in a long time, actually offended by your posts.

You are right, we in the GLBT community do have an agenda. We want to be accepted for who we are. We want to live a life of liberty where we can have the same rights and protections as you do. Our agenda is to change the laws of the US so that we are not discriminated against for who we are.

What someone does behind closed doors is one thing and is no one business but theirs. However forcing others to accept what is a moral issue or else is another thing entirely.

You do realize that you are doing the same thing, don't you? You are forcing others (GLBT and our supporters) to accept what is a moral issue (that homosexuality is sinful) or else. In fact what you are doing is worse, you are seeking to keep the discrimination already in place (no gay marriage, no protection for employment, etc etc) instead of treating everybody equally. The GLBT community is not in anyway trying to restrict your liberties. You can believe what you want. You can preach what you want. You can marry who you want. You can have sex with who you want.

I am not trying to force my morality upon you. Have whatever morals you like, it makes no difference to me. But do not use Jesus to force your morals upon me through the government so you can feel like you are protecting something sacred.

Repealing DADT was a step in the right direction. Yes it is part of an agenda. An agenda that will result in the equal treatment of everybody regardless of their sexual orientation. I fail to see the problem with that.

[Demon_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rutledri

How about if we are going to continue this direction of discussion we take it to a thread of it's own?
While this is related to the topic of DADT it's now getting off the subject a little and taking on it's own life here.

You started down this path, how bout you start another thread and let this one get back on topic.


---------

Bryan, agreed (from a straight conservative).

[Rutledri]

Originally Posted by Bryan

Before I really respond to your posts, I will say that I am, for the first time in a long time, actually offended by your posts.

You are right, we in the GLBT community do have an agenda. We want to be accepted for who we are. We want to live a life of liberty where we can have the same rights and protections as you do. Our agenda is to change the laws of the US so that we are not discriminated against for who we are.

You do realize that you are doing the same thing, don't you? You are forcing others (GLBT and our supporters) to accept what is a moral issue (that homosexuality is sinful) or else. In fact what you are doing is worse, you are seeking to keep the discrimination already in place (no gay marriage, no protection for employment, etc etc) instead of treating everybody equally. The GLBT community is not in anyway trying to restrict your liberties. You can believe what you want. You can preach what you want. You can marry who you want. You can have sex with who you want.

I am not trying to force my morality upon you. Have whatever morals you like, it makes no difference to me. But do not use Jesus to force your morals upon me through the government so you can feel like you are protecting something sacred.

Repealing DADT was a step in the right direction. Yes it is part of an agenda. An agenda that will result in the equal treatment of everybody regardless of their sexual orientation. I fail to see the problem with that.

First off you seem like one of the many in the Gay community who are sane and I think you are likely genuine in wanting to live your life peaceably with others. I agree that you should have that right.
No I am not trying to force my morals on you however you must also understand I do have my own and they are different than yours.
However there are groups on the radical fringe that are brutal towards anyone who does not tow a very specific social and political line. Anyone that does not tow that line is targeted and viciously attacked. That is where I have real issues with a number in the Homosexual community.
I have been attacked personally, politically, professionally and also had these low life's come after my wife.
Had it not been for some Political "friends" who came to my aide I would have lost everything including my home.
It is very likely after seeing your post that you are someone who not only would not have been involved in those type attacks but would also have voiced opposition to them yourself if you knew about them.
What someone believes in there core on morality and what is taught in whatever house of Worship they attend is something that is dear to them and at the very core of the persons being.What I have seen first hand are vicious attacks from some on the far left on those core issues.I have experienced it for my self when with out provocation several of those groups came after me and my family when they thought I was going to run for political office. I was able to survive the attacks believe it or not due to the fact that a sizable group of Homosexuals who knew me were appalled at what was happening and started tipping me on what was coming.
That's right I have friends and close ones who are gay!
I have absolutely no issues with the folks who are Homosexual and just want to live life peaceably, respect others and don't get in other folks faces over the issue of sexual orientation. I also know that the majority of the Gay community fit's that criteria. Understand that does not mean i agree with Homosexuality from a moral aspect I don't, it just means that I respect that person and their ability to make that choice for themselves.
It is the radical lunatic fringe groups like PFLAG and several others that I have major issues with. Like these folks from PFLAG who live here in my community and were picketing a local Church because they didn't like a particular group being there and what they teach.



And I would also have an issue with any Christian groups that did the same. You should respect another persons core beliefs even if you disagree!
These groups I refer to do NOT respect MY community and will see us silenced by any means if they were to gain power!

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Rutledri

Yep overlords is the right term. FYI on the issue # 4 above from the PFLAG group I sat on a political body in my City that was put together as the race relations round table in the 1960's.
This group came before us demanding our support for additional hate crime law.
One of the issues they were lobbing for was "hate speak" from the pulpits. They actually wanted any Pastor that preached that Homosexuality was in any way a sin to be charged with hate speech and be ARRESTED!
No joke and FYI the body was the Community Affairs Committee in Birmingham put together by the corporate community here in 1965 after all our issues. I served as a member of that body for many years.

Looking for DADT....

still looking....

Nope. You've said nothing about DADT, nor rights of homoesexuals, nor anything even tangentially on-topic. Perhaps a thread about individuals in your city would be appropriate? You should invite them to the forum when you make it.

What someone does behind closed doors is one thing and is no one business but theirs. However forcing others to accept what is a moral issue or else is another thing entirely.

And yet you want to be openly heterosexual?

Why are you trying to force me to accept your agenda?

You mean guys like this who teach that the Law has been not just fulfilled by Christ but abolished?

So you follow the law? I'd be willing to bet you don't, you beard-trimming, mixed-material-clothing wearing, non-Kosher-eating, sabbath worker.

How about if we are going to continue this direction of discussion we take it to a thread of it's own?

Good idea: but it's properly Theology which is outside of my approved play area.

While this is related to the topic of DADT it's now getting off the subject a little and taking on it's own life here.

Agreed. It's almost like you avoided every DADT point I raised an instead started talking about some group in your city.

Perhaps I should reiterate.

Originally Posted by Rutledri

I think it is problematic in particular a can of worms in a combat long term situation. Then there is the Moral issue.

The British, Canadians, Australians, French, Spanish, Germans, Swiss, Sweeds, Austrians, Isrealis and most everyone else in the free world has allowed openly homosexuals to serve in the military for decades. Can you point to some examples of how this has hurt their moral?

The study performed by the pentagon, which asked some very direct questions (read it, seriously) concluded the same.

This must be watched closely as there could well be brutal anti Christian bias soon in the military as likely all will be forced to take sensitivity training" some of which can be quite offensive to those of faith.

Tell you what: after we get the chaplains to stop evangelizing; we can discuss if anyone other than the Christians are indoctrinating the military.

[JerryLove]

However there are groups on the radical fringe that are brutal towards anyone who does not tow a very specific social and political line. Anyone that does not tow that line is targeted and viciously attacked. That is where I have real issues with a number in the Homosexual community.

And yet you gloss blithely over the large number of people viciously attacking homosexuals?

I haven't seen the homosexual community rise up to stop heterosexual soldiers from admitting they have a girl/boyfriend. Perhaps I missed it?

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Rutledri

First off you seem like one of the many in the Gay community who are sane and I think you are likely genuine in wanting to live your life peaceably with others. I agree that you should have that right.
No I am not trying to force my morals on you however you must also understand I do have my own and they are different than yours.

so tell me, do you think if I get married that marriage should be recognized by the state? do you support the right for gays to marry?

However there are groups on the radical fringe that are brutal towards anyone who does not tow a very specific social and political line. Anyone that does not tow that line is targeted and viciously attacked. That is where I have real issues with a number in the Homosexual community.

I understand you. But for every gay group that you would include in this I bet I can find a dozen Christian groups that do the same thing towards Gays if I tried hard enough. (NOM, Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, etc etc)

I have been attacked personally, politically, professionally and also had these low life's come after my wife.
Had it not been for some Political "friends" who came to my aide I would have lost everything including my home.
It is very likely after seeing your post that you are someone who not only would not have been involved in those type attacks but would also have voiced opposition to them yourself if you knew about them.

agreed, it's one thing for them to support your opponent, it's totally different for them to come after you

What someone believes in there core on morality and what is taught in whatever house of Worship they attend is something that is dear to them and at the very core of the persons being.What I have seen first hand are vicious attacks from some on the far left on those core issues.

but remember that most gays have grown up being told they are an abomination, are going to hell, that God hates fags, sexual deviants, unnatural, and a whole host of derogatory things. And a lot of Gays hate the church and Christians because of it.

I have experienced it for my self when with out provocation several of those groups came after me and my family when they thought I was going to run for political office. I was able to survive the attacks believe it or not due to the fact that a sizable group of Homosexuals who knew me were appalled at what was happening and started tipping me on what was coming.

see! we're not all bad LOL

That's right I have friends and close ones who are gay!
I have absolutely no issues with the folks who are Homosexual and just want to live life peaceably, respect others and don't get in other folks faces over the issue of sexual orientation. I also know that the majority of the Gay community fit's that criteria. Understand that does not mean i agree with Homosexuality from a moral aspect I don't, it just means that I respect that person and their ability to make that choice for themselves.
It is the radical lunatic fringe groups like PFLAG and several others that I have major issues with. Like these folks from PFLAG who live here in my community and were picketing a local Church because they didn't like a particular group being there and what they teach.

keep in mind that PFLAG is an organization for parents w/ gay children and people can get a little crazy when it comes to protecting their children.

And I would also have an issue with any Christian groups that did the same. You should respect another persons core beliefs even if you disagree!
These groups I refer to do NOT respect MY community and will see us silenced by any means if they were to gain power!

and they won't gain power.

[redbaron]

has anyone seen this? No Agenda Shots: Don't Ask Don't Tell is NOT repealed! gets interesting around 1:25. I haven't listened to the whole thing, but it kind of sounds like they didn't actually repeal anything until a laundry list of conditions and such are met (and have not been met yet) so it seems like more of a "let's do something that has no effect but allows us to claim we did all this stuff to our base when it comes to the election", yet when people finally get wind that nothing has changed, they can blame the next congress for that.

Or maybe it's just my cynical jaded self that sees it that way.