Ear Training. Diminished and Augmented problem.

Demon_Hunter · 10-23-2010, 04:51 PM

Ive started seriously ear training. Im seeing progress in my ability to lock onto pitches and intervals.

But for some reason Im having a hard time differentiating the sound of a Diminished from an Augmented triad.

The only reason I can think of for this is that because of the even spread of the intervals Im getting myself confused because Im listening for M3-m3, or m3-M3, but when I hear m3-m3, or M3-M3 from the root Im not locking onto the m3 or M3 intervals. Im just hearing the even spread of the intervals and my ear is getting confused.

Has anyone else experienced this problem, and if so, what solution have you found to be most effective, if you have yet found a solution.

As for what Im doing to correct the problem, Ive switched from practicing Major 2nds through Perfect 5ths to focussing on mostly Thirds, minor and major, but yesterday and this morning I noticed my results had actually regressed. So, any advice would be appreciated.

gtrdave · 10-23-2010, 07:06 PM

To me the difference is clear: minor third intervals sound like minor third intervals...they sound "small" and only have a three fret span on the guitar, whereas major third intervals sound "big"...bigger than minor thirds, that is. I mean, it's only 1 fret difference, but the sound texture or mood is the key.
Minor thirds always sound darker to me. Sad. Major thirds always sound brighter. Happy.
Therefore, a diminished triad is going to sound like dark after dark after dark...and an augmented triad will sound bright after bright after bright and so on.
Does any of this make sense?

Demon_Hunter · 10-24-2010, 05:45 AM

It does make sense. But, inspite of the sensefulness of it my ears are still catching on to it.

**Rainer.** · 10-24-2010, 11:02 PM

I just listen for the root-fifth tritone of the diminished. Diminished chords sound like inverted Dominant 7 chords to me.

Leviathon · 11-03-2010, 08:14 AM

Think of the beginning of the theme song for the Simpsons or Maria from Westside story.

"The - Simp - Sons"
"Ma - Ri - A"

Diminshed 5th or Augmented 4ths...

In fact West Side Story's music has intervals in them that can be used for training the ear. Research it on google..

gtrdave · 11-03-2010, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Think of the beginning of the theme song for the Simpsons or Maria from Westside story.

"The - Simp - Sons"
"Ma - Ri - A"

Diminshed 5th or Augmented 4ths...

In fact West Side Story's music has intervals in them that can be used for training the ear. Research it on google..

Both of those examples are actually Lydian mode = diatonic major w/ sharp 4. Not diminished nor augmented triads.

A good and easily recognizable example of diminished triad would be the ascending run at the conclusion of the intro to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm. It's just consecutive minor thirds.
Other old music/classic music pieces used diminished scale in abundance.
And then there's most every Yngwie Malmsteen guitar solo...

For augmented, think the opening chord, also the V7+5 chord , of Chuck Berry's "No Particular Place to Go". Several other '50s tunes used a +5 V chord/triad, too.

Leviathon · 11-03-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Both of those examples are actually Lydian mode = diatonic major w/ sharp 4. Not diminished nor augmented triads.

A good and easily recognizable example of diminished triad would be the ascending run at the conclusion of the intro to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm. It's just consecutive minor thirds.
Other old music/classic music pieces used diminished scale in abundance.
And then there's most every Yngwie Malmsteen guitar solo...

For augmented, think the opening chord, also the V7+5 chord , of Chuck Berry's "No Particular Place to Go". Several other '50s tunes used a +5 V chord/triad, too.

Sure they have their Modal reference, but that is more than you need for ear training and site training at this point in time... when it comes to picking out and singing an interval from it's root, those are diminished and augmented intervals.

Example.. perfect 4th is "Here Comes the bride"
Perfect 5th is "Star Wars Theme".

Ear training and site training when I went to school was seeing notes on a page and being able to sing the notes with no music to help you. Here is your tonic, now sing it. We started with learning intervals amd being able to sing them.

gtrdave · 11-03-2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Sure they have their Modal reference, but that is more than you need for ear training and site training at this point in time... when it comes to picking out and singing an interval from it's root, those are diminished and augmented intervals.

Example.. perfect 4th is "Here Comes the bride"
Perfect 5th is "Star Wars Theme".

Ear training and site training when I went to school was seeing notes on a page and being able to sing the notes with no music to help you. Here is your tonic, now sing it. We started with learning intervals amd being able to sing them.

Recognizing the interval between 2 notes is one thing, but the OP was asking about triads and specifically dim and aug triads. To recognize either a diminished triad or an augmented triad, using melodies based on Lydian mode is not only unnecessary, it's incorrect.

It may seem simple enough to recognize a minor or major third interval, but more difficult to identify consecutive minor thirds (diminished) or major thirds (augmented) in triad or chord form, which is where the OP is struggling.
I was simply pointing out that both the Simpsons theme and the WSS song "Maria" are Lydian-based melodies and therefore major scale since they contain a major/minor triad which is neither diminished nor augmented.

btw: there are only 4 triads (root-3-5):
major/minor = major
minor/major = minor
major/major = augmented
minor/minor = diminished

Leviathon · 11-03-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Recognizing the interval between 2 notes is one thing, but the OP was asking about triads and specifically dim and aug triads. To recognize either a diminished triad or an augmented triad, using melodies based on Lydian mode is not only unnecessary, it's incorrect.

It may seem simple enough to recognize a minor or major third interval, but more difficult to identify consecutive minor thirds (diminished) or major thirds (augmented) in triad or chord form, which is where the OP is struggling.
I was simply pointing out that both the Simpsons theme and the WSS song "Maria" are Lydian-based melodies and therefore major scale since they contain a major/minor triad which is neither diminished nor augmented.

btw: there are only 4 triads (root-3-5):
major/minor = major
minor/major = minor
major/major = augmented
minor/minor = diminished

Thanks for clearning me up..

Diminished Triads sound to me as if they want to resolve more so than than an augmented triad (with the root being the lowest note), whereas my ears don't tend to want to resolve the Augemented Triad. I'm curious if I'm the only one that hears that.

**Rainer.** · 11-03-2010, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leviathon

Thanks for clearning me up..

Diminished Triads sound to me as if they want to resolve more so than than an augmented triad (with the root being the lowest note), whereas my ears don't tend to want to resolve the Augemented Triad. I'm curious if I'm the only one that hears that.

You're not the only one.

The diminished triad, again, is the top three notes of a Dominant 7 chord. So it has a natural resolution to a I chord when it acts as a de facto viio triad.

The augmented triad serves no such role.