[mikegug]

Has anyone read it or does/did anyone follow its advise with any success stories?

My boys (15 and 18 years old), my wife and I have read it. Most of the boys' friends have read it. However, looking at their friends' Facebook pages, one could easily conclude that the friends didn't really draw anything from it. Everyone has a girlfriend or boyfriend at 14, 15 and 16 years old.

I realize I'm "not of this world", but I'm REALLY starting to feel like an alien from a different planet on this.

What gives? ANYONE? Teenagers, you out there?

[mulletman]

Eeeeeeewwwww. Someone kissed it goodbye!

[Rainer.]

I haven't read that book in a while, but I remember when I did read it, I had a lot of issues with applying what Harris was trying to say to myself and everyone else around me. I don't think I want to go into too much detail before I refresh myself on what the book said, lest I butcher Harris's message any unknowingly.

I mean, I thought he had a lot of good ideas in there, and it was written with good intentions, but it definitely did not convince me to be against "dating". In short, i didn't really agree with it.

[beanbag]

it's been a long time since i read it, but the one point i remember that really stood out to me was this: dating sets the stage for divorce.

some people might disagree with me, and that's fine--you're entitled to your opinion.

however, the way i understood harris' opinion and my opinion is this: you start "dating" someone when you're 14, 15, 16...shoot, even 20. things don't work out, you break up. some kids are pretty mature and are able to work through a lot of problems, but eventually there comes a point when you just can't be together anymore. let's face it, very rarely do high school sweethearts stay together now. it's great if you know someone who's with their high school sweetheart--i only know of one couple who's under 35 who were high school sweethearts, and i'm not positive they'll stay together.

most kids, however, are not mature enough to work through their problems, so they break up. eventually it becomes a pattern--one little thing sets you off, and it's over. kids learn to run. i've seen it in my younger brother, who chose to "date" starting when he was 14 or 15. he invests time and emotion into a girl he's not emotionally or financially mature enough to be seeing, things don't work out, she ends things or he ends things--either way, his heart is crushed and he gets moody and depressed for months, until he meets a new girl and things start all over again.

personally, i am against "dating" until you're old enough to seriously be considering marriage. when i was a teen, i thought it was dumb to date before you could drive. (seriously? asking your mom to drive you somewhere for a date? at 15, i knew better than that.) i continued to not date for various reasons, and here i am at almost 24, a non-dater.

i think it's fine for girls and boys to hang out, and i think it's fine for them to like each other, but i think it is a bad idea to declare exclusive relationships before they're old enough to seriously pursue the possibility of marriage.

as an adult, i may or may not go out with a man if he asks me out, but i most certainly am not going to date anyone unless i feel pretty certain that i could marry him.

[Skeeter]

I think it was written with good intentions but that it's extremely misguided. While I certainly think it's a good idea to wait to date, I think it's silly to avoid calling it "dating." That said, it's also not the end of the world if teenagers are dating as well.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by mikegug

Has anyone read it or does/did anyone follow its advise with any success stories?

My boys (15 and 18 years old), my wife and I have read it. Most of the boys' friends have read it. However, looking at their friends' Facebook pages, one could easily conclude that the friends didn't really draw anything from it. Everyone has a girlfriend or boyfriend at 14, 15 and 16 years old.

I realize I'm "not of this world", but I'm REALLY starting to feel like an alien from a different planet on this.

What gives? ANYONE? Teenagers, you out there?

Not trying to be a downer Mike, but I knew a bunch of people that swore by the book and used it to "success". By "success" I mean that they started "courting" their high school sweetheart (with the parent involvement and all that), got married at 19 and starting cranking out babies.

Now, I'm not trying to say that this is a bad thing. The people I just described have been married ever since (at this point, we're talking 6-7 years). I don't know if these folks are really a case of that lucky "high school sweethearts", but it may look that way. That being said, I've also known kids that were hardcore into IKDGB in high school that, as soon as they got out from under their parents' thumb went sexually crazy.

I read IKDGB at some point in high school. At the time I don't think I had started dating anyone, and I was reading it because a bunch of friends suggested it, not because my parents had read it and thought it was an awesome idea. I knew a lot of people who loved it and a lot of people who hated it so I really tried to read it with an open mind. Here's some things I took from it:

1) I think Harris in on track when he talks about the foolishness of dating when you're in no position to marry.
2) I disagree with Harris' position on parental/group involvement in the relationship. I do think parental opinion is very important, but the concept of only being able to hang out with the girl you're "courting" when your parents are around or in a large group of friends is something I disagreed with. I think it's great to be on good terms with your potential future in-laws or whatever, but there are also a lot of things that I will share with my girlfriend/fiance/wife that I would not share with my in-laws or even with my own parents. Also, I think a lot of people show more vulnerability one-on-one than they will in groups. or especially around parents.
3) I felt like the tone of Harris' book was largely one of "this is the way I did it, and if you don't follow my example and learn from the mistakes I already made, then you're a bad person." I know Harris never says this outright, but this is definitely the impression it leaves on a lot of teens. Many of the big IKDGB kids I knew were empowered with a sense of self-righteousness because of their beliefs. I think this is part of why they were so quick to recommend it to others and why they were often confused when they met other Christian teens that didn't think IKDGB was totally awesome too. I know as an "outside" I definitely felt an air of contempt from time to time from these teens.

Now, I know I've mostly concentrated on the negative, but I think that the book is a useful learning tool if you take it for what it is, a book. I don't think that most (any?) 14-17 year old kids really have any business dating. That being said, I don't think I'm qualified to draw the arbitrary line between "hanging out" and "dating".

Something you may find interesting is that Harris wrote IKDGB at the age of 23. Three years later he wrote another book...another after that, etc. It might be beneficial for you to read all of his books and see how his opinions have shifted as he has grown older and has had the time to reflect on his journeys.

[bobthecockroach]

I think "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" solves one problem by introducing another.

Harris is right that casually dating lots of different people without any real commitment or accountability is bad. His solution though leads to the problem of friends who are basically dating, they just don't call it that because they aren't old enough to get married. If there's going to be a relationship anyway, it needs to be given a name and a commitment. I'm not saying every time two people like each other, they should start a relationship, but if a mutual liking has been going on for months and the people involved spend all their time together, it's probably time to define the relationship.

[mikegug]

Originally Posted by thesteve

...Harris wrote IKDGB at the age of 23. Three years later he wrote another book...another after that, etc. It might be beneficial for you to read all of his books and see how his opinions have shifted as he has grown older and has had the time to reflect on his journeys.

That's a great idea.

What I'm looking for IS a little follow up. I don't see myself (at this point) going to the other parents and asking, "Why aren't you following IKDG?" so that's a good plan of action.

Thanks for all the input everyone. Very interesting POV's.

One thing I see is that the author really isn't anti-dating (he defines dating to fit the catchy title), it's pro-maturity (spiritual and otherwise) and looking out for what God has for your life. One point he makes is: don't just date because someone is cute. That's I did for years. It's not good. Luckily I was shy so my experience was minimized and by the grace of God, I met my wife. I look back and can obviously see God's hand in my life. It'd be funny if there wasn't heart ache and pain involved.

Originally Posted by thesteve

Many of the big IKDGB kids I knew were empowered with a sense of self-righteousness because of their beliefs. I think this is part of why they were so quick to recommend it to others and why they were often confused when they met other Christian teens that didn't think IKDGB was totally awesome too. I know as an "outside" I definitely felt an air of contempt from time to time from these teens.

I hear ya. Yeah, it is SO anti-culture, it does come off almost as a self-rightous posture. Now that I typed that answer there, it HAS to be self-rightous, you know? It's not rightous by the prevailing culture. Interesting.

Anyway, getting to what you meant, yes, when I was introduced to IKDG, the proponants were I got that same (let's call it) "nose-in-the-air" feel . And the empowerment thing, yeah, it's almost a punk rock type of rebellion saying: I know the culture wants me to buy into this, but I'm going this way! And, if that gets my 15 year old son to the age of 19 without sexual partners with zero chance of ANY of them being his wife, well, so be it.

This parenting thing is HARD!

[mikegug]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

While I certainly think it's a good idea to wait to date, I think it's silly to avoid calling it "dating." That said, it's also not the end of the world if teenagers are dating as well.

Yeah, but it depends on a lot of things though. Most of those things, teenagers aren't mature enough to deal with.

One of the many truths about the book is the general idea that SOOOOO much energy and focus goes into puppy love. I'm sure God does not want us to focus on non-productive activities. He can use it for good, but I'm sure, but He'd rather have us showing His love to the hurting rather than one cute girl.

[rock_show_host]

I think others have already posted some version of my thoughts, but here they are.

1) I do agree with what I think is Harris's core message: romantic relationships are serious business and should be handled with maturity and commitment. Which may mean avoiding them until you reach a certain age or a certain point in your life. In a middle and high school culture that seems to celebrate having a boyfriend/girlfriend just because you can, that's a message teens could stand to hear.

2) I worry about how easily this particular book gets idolized. Meaning that it's become such a phenomenon in the Christian subculture that it practically gets treated as the Bible -- when you ask certain teens (or their parents) why they feel the way they do about dating, you can often tell that the honest answer is, "Because this book told me to." It feels to me like the equivalent of a group of 1st graders watching an environmentalist movie in class, then coming home and declaring to their parents that they've all become environmentalists. How long do you think that's going to last? How deep-seated do you think those ideals really are? It's easy to want to jump on board with a book like this because it succeeds in getting youth groups charged and eager to go out and defy the world and shine their lights, blah blah blah. But if as Christians, they're entirely basing all of their new ideals on a popular "it" book, rather than the God and the Bible to which they believe the book is pointing them, then there's a problem. And as soon as the book is no longer a strong enough phenomenon to support their morals (and it won't be), then what's going to happen to those morals?

3) I hate how much the book contributes to the ridiculously silly semantics game of "courting" vs. "dating." Neither of those words actually has any meaning. When I say that I dated my wife, I'm using the word differently than my friend who says that he dated five girls in the same week. I think part of the appeal of Harris's book is that he tries to make "dating" into a worldly term, making it easy for Christian teens to rally behind him and say, "Christians can't date! The world dates! Be in the world but not of it! Woohooo!" The problem is that a relationship isn't defined by the word you use to refer to it. It's defined by what you mean when you use that word. To get all gun-ho about how "dating" is wrong and "courting" is the way to go completely misses the point. Like the bobthecockroach said, behaving like you're dating isn't any holier just because you refuse to call it that. And pursuing a committed, loving and mature relationship isn't any less holy just because two people say that they're dating.

4) I agree with thesteve; Harris's picture of parental involvement or "chaperoning" is excessive. If two people are in enough of a committed relationship that marriage is a possibility, even in the distant future, then I think alone time is crucial. Period. The idea of marrying someone who I had only ever seen in the company of her parents or a group of our friends would be absurd. Obviously, a lot of discretion is important, especially if the people in question are teens living under their parents' roofs, and alone time in the wrong circumstances should maybe be avoided. But to a parent who refuses to allow their child to spend so much as a second alone with a significant other, I'd ask why bother allowing them to date at all? If they're mature enough to commit to another person and begin thinking seriously about marriage, shouldn't they be mature enough to share an elevator without having sex?

[mikegug]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

2) I worry about how easily this particular book gets idolized. Meaning that it's become such a phenomenon in the Christian subculture that it practically gets treated as the Bible -- when you ask certain teens (or their parents) why they feel the way they do about dating, you can often tell that the honest answer is, "Because this book told me to." ........ How long do you think that's going to last? How deep-seated do you think those ideals really are? It's easy to want to jump on board with a book like this because it succeeds in getting youth groups charged and eager to go out and defy the world and shine their lights, blah blah blah. But if as Christians, they're entirely basing all of their new ideals on a popular "it" book, rather than the God and the Bible to which they believe the book is pointing them, then there's a problem.

Right. And that's where I can tell you from my experience of an involved parent, that this book gives us tremendous numbers of opportunities and ample time for multiple discussions ALWAYS pointing to Biblical principles. No matter what the temptation or resulting sin(s), you HAVE to be able to point to the Bible and start discussions.

And for those of you ready to respond: no dating is not a sin, but it most certainly can lead to temptation. And if you are not ready for temptation, LOOK OUT! You can prepare yourself with Biblical principle... or cable TV or friends or advertisers or reality shows or video games or.... Someone with good discernment HAS TO be involved.

[burningtr33]

I think the idea that someone wanted to touch the subject of dating in the christian community is great. I can't really recall any sort of guidelines for dating (except dont have sex) in a christian context or even a book until Harris' book. After this book I remember this topic being very popular in church youth groups and what not.

I think Christians should have been talking about dating/courtship all this time because the kids are really confused. They go to church and they are told that sex is wrong out of marriage, but there were no guidelines besides that for dating. They go to school and see their peers who are "in love" sleeping around, but they were told that was wrong in church. So when it came to dating, it was really tough for them to figure out what to do.

When I ask kids in an open forum type of discussion, they view dating something that is not related to God. Whenever the topic of God comes up in a relationship/dating topic, I could tell that it gets very awkward. The kids feel that those two things don't mix like water and oil. And when they get to college or move out, a lot of the kids tired of the only guideline to dating, start sleeping around. I think in a way we kind of owe it to Harris of bringing this topic up.

@rock show host:

I definitely agree with your 2nd point. I actually encountered several friends who saw this book as the cure all for their relationship problems. It's great that Christians are talking about it now, but i just think that one book cannot solve all the problems in a relationship/dating scenario. Life throws all sorts of curve balls and because of that people cannot bury themselves with one strategy.

Again I agree with your 3rd point. There was a sermon by Rick Holland and one of the points he makes is that everyone has their own definition of the term "dating". Harris tries to declare a universal definition of dating, but in reality it's really hard to have everyone agree what "dating" really means.

@ beanbag:

I do agree that people shouldn't be dating when they are not ready, but life happens. I always tell my youth group kids to try to not date in high school and especially in middle school, but they always end up finding someone and start going out. Hopefully they will grow up and see that most of those relationships are futile. With that being said I do know a couple that started going out in 9th grade and are still going out and they are about to graduate college and I believe are discussing marriage. life is like chemistry, there are exceptions to every rule.

@ mikegug:

In my limited experience as a youth group pastor and being a male in American public schools, it's pretty tough just being a kid here. I remember when I was in high school dating someone meant that you were man enough to talk to a girl and ask her out. It was a lot of status thing and social hierarchy kind of thing. There's a lot of movies out there about high school and how if you can't get the girls (if you are a male of course) you are some how deemed as a loser or a freak of nature. Consequently, high school is sort of like that.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by mikegug

Right. And that's where I can tell you from my experience of an involved parent, that this book gives us tremendous numbers of opportunities and ample time for multiple discussions ALWAYS pointing to Biblical principles. No matter what the temptation or resulting sin(s), you HAVE to be able to point to the Bible and start discussions.

And for those of you ready to respond: no dating is not a sin, but it most certainly can lead to temptation. And if you are not ready for temptation, LOOK OUT! You can prepare yourself with Biblical principle... or cable TV or friends or advertisers or reality shows or video games or.... Someone with good discernment HAS TO be involved.

Courting can also lead to temptation. The desire for physical intimacy grows with emotional intimacy of a relationship, whether you're "dating", "courting", or even "just friends".

I am all for fathers teaching their son the good and Biblical way to show a girl and her family respect. But there are much healthier ways to do that than saying "Courtship helps you avoid temptation." which can be misconstrued by teenagers, and might even paint an unhealthy picture of demonizing physical intimacy. (which IKDG doesn't necessarily do, but it definitely is often misconstrued to)

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by mikegug

And for those of you ready to respond: no dating is not a sin, but it most certainly can lead to temptation.

So can courting. That's my point. What you call it is irrelevant, and to a certain extent, what rules you lay down are irrelevant. Romance will necessarily involve temptation. Two people who are attracted to each other and committed to a romantic relationship with the intention of someday getting married are going to be tempted. To think that temptation will no longer be an issue because you've adopted an arbitrary set of rules is extremely dangerous.

The bottom line is that if two people want to have sex, short of being chained up in separate militia-guarded rooms, they can always find a way. The important thing is for the two people involved to start with a strong foundation of faith and Biblical understanding, coupled with an acknowledgment that they're human and may need some accountability.

You mentioned puppy love and how shallow it is. I honestly think a lot of Christians' affinity for this book falls into the realm of puppy love. Meaning that it strikes a chord with them and gets them energized about their new outlook on relationships, but if their new outlook is based on nothing but the fact that the book gives them warm Christian fuzzies, then it won't last. Jesus spoke about this directly:

Luke 8:13
13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Just as many teenagers love the idea of having a girlfriend more than they genuinely love their girlfriends, I think plenty of Christians love the idea of this book more than they genuinely love the ideals around which it's based.

[mikegug]

Originally Posted by Alton Dong

Courting can also lead to temptation. The desire for physical intimacy grows with emotional intimacy of a relationship, whether you're "dating", "courting", or even "just friends".

I am all for fathers teaching their son the good and Biblical way to show a girl and her family respect. But there are much healthier ways to do that than saying "Courtship helps you avoid temptation." which can be misconstrued by teenagers, and might even paint an unhealthy picture of demonizing physical intimacy. (which IKDG doesn't necessarily do, but it definitely is often misconstrued to)

No, I meant dating according to how Harris defines it, resulting in a lot of alone time with girls.

Courtship does not guarantee anything.