[adamwagg]

Originally Posted by normajean777

Couldn't this also have come as a result of a generally happier society?

Because of the gun buy back? Or just in general?

[tlj009]

I always thought that women were less likely to shoot their self in the head than men because they didn't want to mess up their face...even in death. I just thought that women were more likely to do things that did the least amount of visible damage to their body (pills, exhaust, etc.). I don't know where I got that idea, though.

Edit:

Ask and you shall receive!

Go to page 13 of the PDF file and it has suicide statistics for both men and women 1997-2006, with, as you figured, fewer men committing suicide than women.

It appears that suicides have dropped across the board (pages 13 and 16). It may be that the gun control measure haven't affected the number as much as it has been given credit for.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

I suspect that more men (successfully) use firearms as their mode of suicide than women. Given that, removing firearms would results in a greater reduction amongst men (who successfully use them more) than among women.

Though it's possible that other factors come into play: hence my uncertainty.

As a general rule of thumb:
- More women attempt suicide than men.
- A greater percentage of men succeed.
- The resulting actual rate of (successful) suicide is about the same for both genders.

but, they do not (generally) choose the same methods.

I have also heard as a general rule, women choose less disfiguring methods than men. Just what law enforcement officers have told me. I do know that in high school the girls I knew who attempted suicide nearly always used pills. Could just be a trend.

I am pretty sure there are a lot of trends that exist which coexist with other trends for which neither are causal.

[normajean777]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

Because of the gun buy back? Or just in general?

Just in general. There are so many aspects to life, that instantly equating less guns to less suicides is just a bit reaching. Maybe there has been more sunshine as a result of global warming, which has led to more happiness in the general populace leading to less suicides.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by normajean777

Just in general. There are so many aspects to life, that instantly equating less guns to less suicides is just a bit reaching. Maybe there has been more sunshine as a result of global warming, which has led to more happiness in the general populace leading to less suicides.

I certainly agree that correlation isn't causation. It would be worth looking at other factors, and other details that might help.

Breaking suicides down by type and looking at those changes might be interesting, or the afore-mentioned men-vs-women, or other countries that have done similarly, or whether such flucuations are normal.

[adamwagg]

Assuming a causation effect between reducing the number of firearms and reducing the number of suicides - do people consider that a compelling, an irrelevant or somewhere in between argument in the ongoing firearm control debate?

[DaGeek]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

Assuming a causation effect between reducing the number of firearms and reducing the number of suicides - do people consider that a compelling, an irrelevant or somewhere in between argument in the ongoing firearm control debate?

I'm in-between. On the one hand, if it were actually a direct relation, then that's quite the encouragement; on the other hand, do we ban something that is inherently a neutral entity because some people do stupid things with it?

The answer... I'm unsure.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

Assuming a causation effect between reducing the number of firearms and reducing the number of suicides - do people consider that a compelling, an irrelevant or somewhere in between argument in the ongoing firearm control debate?

Not really. Assuming causation is a huge leap firstly. Secondly, suicidal people will find a way. It takes a very short amount of time to kill ones self any number of ways.

My guess would be, that if this effect is causal, it will be temporary until suicide in the culture changes to another method primarily. In short, while people think of guns for suicide, and there is low availability, it will slow, but if, say od'ing became the cultural suicide norm, it would no longer make a difference. And OD'ing I picked because it is relatively easy, minimal planning required, etc. It can easily be done on impulse, more so than hanging or most other methods.

[bread man]

How long would you expect it to take for the culture to change? It's been almost 15 years since Port Arthur and Howard's gun control laws, which are almost universally praised over here. I would go so far as to say that guns are not in our culture anymore, which I know is sort of an ambiguous statement.. I know one person who owns a gun, and he is a champion shooter.

To be honest, the debate around gun control is not something I have paid careful attention to. It does seem to me, though, that America has insane rates of firearm-related deaths. The fact that Americans are often so quick to dismiss access to firearms as a cause of that just seems borderline insane to me, like purposely ignoring the facts. Most Australians I've spoken to about the issue feel the same way.

I'm not trying be rude here, just trying to get a better grasp of the arguments as you guys see them. I've seen a lot of those sorts of arguments from very intelligent people on here and I feel I must be missing something.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by bread man

How long would you expect it to take for the culture to change? It's been almost 15 years since Port Arthur and Howard's gun control laws, which are almost universally praised over here. I would go so far as to say that guns are not in our culture anymore, which I know is sort of an ambiguous statement.. I know one person who owns a gun, and he is a champion shooter.

Me, I'd expect 20-30 years minimum to acclimatize. If you want to off yourself, the quick, easy way is the way of the serious person and... well, there are a ton of those.

US crime in general is not as bad as many other areas of the world I have been, and realize, I have been working in some of America's worst slums for years. From all I know, there is no analogous place in your country. A lot of the kids I work with are gangsters from Watts. I used to work in Cabrini Green in Chicago. I worked a minimum wage job one summer in Watts. (Watts is L.A.s hell hole.)

I own a small collection of guns. Roughly what I would want in your country if I was in the outback would be a .410 snake charmer to dispatch snakes. I don't think you have many of the human hunting predators I used to hunt. (Puma, bear, hyena, (don't ask, somebody really screwed up 50 years ago in an area I used to live.) and even rogue coyotes)

To be honest, the debate around gun control is not something I have paid careful attention to. It does seem to me, though, that America has insane rates of firearm-related deaths. The fact that Americans are often so quick to dismiss access to firearms as a cause of that just seems borderline insane to me, like purposely ignoring the facts. Most Australians I've spoken to about the issue feel the same way.

In a lot of american areas, gun control only disarms the law abiding. That doesn't work. I would say that how Great Britain went after initial bans might have something to do with it. (Knife murders increasing) And I would far rather have a gun used on me than a knife. My chances of survival would be much higher.

Also, I have had to use a gun to prevent a murder of my neighbor once when I lived in a crappy area. He had stabbed his tenant with a sharpened stick, through the arm, thrown the guy to the concrete and had an aluminum bat to bash his skull in. I had my wife dial 911 while I hollered and kept a gun trained on him visibly to halt his attack. And I would have pulled the trigger if I had to.

Australia has a very different culture than America, and I think is not as fractured, or as hostile as America can be. We have ghettos. And I tend to accumulate stories because I grew up in one, lived and worked in a few.

Most americans will never have a gun crime involve them. I have had my guns out in hostility a few times, including halting a couple of attempted burglaries as a teen. (One when the guy didn't care who was home and kicked in the front door, and was armed with a pipe. I had bayonet drawn, and was locked and loaded, so when he got threw, I was there and he was looking down the barrel of a WWII era Russian rifle.

I'm not trying be rude here, just trying to get a better grasp of the arguments as you guys see them. I've seen a lot of those sorts of arguments from very intelligent people on here and I feel I must be missing something.

Here is my basic one. I grew up in a violent neighborhood, and I could make a shotgun in an australian hardware store for murderous purposes. Criminals will have weapons. The bad guys will have them here. Do I want to end up dead, or halting someone in their tracks who intends to kill?

In both cases, no actual violence was needed to stop a violent attacker. And I held them until the police picked them up. In one case I was chatting with the arresting officer asking him for instructions. BTW, that assault with a deadly weapon call took police 40 minutes to respond to. My neighbor Ramone would have been dead for 35 had I not had a gun.

Ironically, in a society like the Republic of Ireland, I felt no need for a gun and would if I ever moved there, probably not pursue ownership or even look into it.

Currently, I live in the OC and my guns are hiding, and are really rather useless. Where I feel they would be useful, I can't take them.

[adamwagg]

It is interesting the very different reactions I hear on here from Americans to talking to Australians about gun control.

I know in rural areas gun ownership is higher - I assume more hunting, having to cull kangaroos etc. We don't have the big predators that you mentioned. We have plently of snakes - though I've never seen anything over here call for having a gun to deal with snakes - more advice on letting them be and not running away. I am a city boy though so I could be out of the loop.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by adamwagg

Assuming a causation effect between reducing the number of firearms and reducing the number of suicides - do people consider that a compelling, an irrelevant or somewhere in between argument in the ongoing firearm control debate?

It's an interesting factor, though likely one that speaks more to the process of suicide and suicide prevention than the issue of firearm control.

Two points.

1) It's only one part of an equation that should consider the legit uses of firearms.
2) It's hard to want to take away a person who wants to lives ability to defend themselves because someone who might want to die may find it easier to succeed.

[bread man]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Me, I'd expect 20-30 years minimum to acclimatize. If you want to off yourself, the quick, easy way is the way of the serious person and... well, there are a ton of those.

US crime in general is not as bad as many other areas of the world I have been, and realize, I have been working in some of America's worst slums for years. From all I know, there is no analogous place in your country. A lot of the kids I work with are gangsters from Watts. I used to work in Cabrini Green in Chicago. I worked a minimum wage job one summer in Watts. (Watts is L.A.s hell hole.)

I own a small collection of guns. Roughly what I would want in your country if I was in the outback would be a .410 snake charmer to dispatch snakes. I don't think you have many of the human hunting predators I used to hunt. (Puma, bear, hyena, (don't ask, somebody really screwed up 50 years ago in an area I used to live.) and even rogue coyotes)

Yeah, I guess we have crocodiles up north but not too much else. Just lots of poisonous snakes and spiders.

It's funny, I remember when my family lived in Boston, one of our friends came across a bear in his back yard so he called the police and they came and shot it. I also remember playing hide and seek in a friend's house and coming across his dad's shotgun in a closet. I was about 10 then, and the next time I saw a gun after that was last year (I was 21) and it was a collector's collection of WWII rifles.

My only real memory of LA other than Disney Land is staying with my parents friends who are now missionaries. The first night we stayed with them their car got stolen and it didn't seem to bother them at all. Seems like almost every memory I have of something crazy that happened is from the years I was in America. We lived there around the time of Columbine (and a bunch of others...I think my dad counted eight in six months or something), which was one of the major reasons my parents decided they wanted us to move back to Australia, even though we all loved it there and could have stayed longer.

In a lot of american areas, gun control only disarms the law abiding. That doesn't work. I would say that how Great Britain went after initial bans might have something to do with it. (Knife murders increasing) And I would far rather have a gun used on me than a knife. My chances of survival would be much higher.

Also, I have had to use a gun to prevent a murder of my neighbor once when I lived in a crappy area. He had stabbed his tenant with a sharpened stick, through the arm, thrown the guy to the concrete and had an aluminum bat to bash his skull in. I had my wife dial 911 while I hollered and kept a gun trained on him visibly to halt his attack. And I would have pulled the trigger if I had to.

Australia has a very different culture than America, and I think is not as fractured, or as hostile as America can be. We have ghettos. And I tend to accumulate stories because I grew up in one, lived and worked in a few.

Most americans will never have a gun crime involve them. I have had my guns out in hostility a few times, including halting a couple of attempted burglaries as a teen. (One when the guy didn't care who was home and kicked in the front door, and was armed with a pipe. I had bayonet drawn, and was locked and loaded, so when he got threw, I was there and he was looking down the barrel of a WWII era Russian rifle.

Here is my basic one. I grew up in a violent neighborhood, and I could make a shotgun in an australian hardware store for murderous purposes. Criminals will have weapons. The bad guys will have them here. Do I want to end up dead, or halting someone in their tracks who intends to kill?

In both cases, no actual violence was needed to stop a violent attacker. And I held them until the police picked them up. In one case I was chatting with the arresting officer asking him for instructions. BTW, that assault with a deadly weapon call took police 40 minutes to respond to. My neighbor Ramone would have been dead for 35 had I not had a gun.

Ironically, in a society like the Republic of Ireland, I felt no need for a gun and would if I ever moved there, probably not pursue ownership or even look into it.

Currently, I live in the OC and my guns are hiding, and are really rather useless. Where I feel they would be useful, I can't take them.

I think I see the difference. We definitely have problem areas but maybe not generally as hostile. Plus we're a lot smaller.