[Kentl]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

The thing that most gets me about this form of argumentation is the simple fact that humans overlook the fact that they are vile, wicked creatures. Usually, when someone makes the argument, God is cruel because of x, it is a copout.

Most of the arguments I have seen from Shawn are a rather poor strawman that no Christian actually believes.

It would be me akin to walking to an atheist and yelling that I am not an atheist because atheists eat babies. The simple fact is, I don't know of an atheist that eats babies or that advocates that. But the simple fact is, scripture teaches a lot of things that he is unwilling to accept, but rather odd things. Like that men and women are made in the image of God and equal. I don't want to get into that argument here.

But most of the time I hear, God is cruel because of X, X is almost always a result of the fall, or a direct result of someone's sin. And the way to win this is not by an argument, because usually, since it is not a result of divine intervention, but human wickedness, the answer is going to be gibberish.

One thing to remember. Having all the answers does not help you sleep at night. Thinking you have everything all figured out will not help. I say this because most often when someone says this, they are hurting, and altogether irrational. (Humans are not rational beings, we are rational and emotional and to attempt to reduce us to only rational is to deny our humanity.) But the thing is, most apologists treat us as only rational, and most of us who would like to escape the pain, want to escape the pain of being human. Thus, I see a lot of people treat an emotional outcry of pain with the cold rationality which only masks the pain by dehumanizing a person.

Thus, my answer to the original question is to pray, and give a listening ear. It does far more than the convincing ear to rehumanize the heart which wants anesthesia by rationality.

first i fully belive girls are equal to us men

2nd i dont belive a girl needs to have a guy to watch over him

and last but not least humans are evil
but they also have great goodness in them
just like god
when we eat the furit we got the knodgleg the same he did

before could we kill one another?
could we lie?
could wedo anythign wrong?
no
humans are evil and good
god is evil and good


now anyways
do you deny that back then women could not be in the same worship area as the men?
they ahd their own


do you deny that it was REALLY hard for a women to not have a husband if she did not
one of her own options was to become a prostute becuse she needed $$ for food


do you deny that the bible verse i posted said
god made the phroor say no and STILL punsihed him for it

and if you want to punshie someone find
but dont punish babys who have done nothing
his wrath always gets other pepole hurt in the procces
why yes they are not clean of sin
i dont think he is either


just becuse a man sined dose not give me the right to kill him

what i fidn is satin betreayd him and will tyr tot ake over
yet god did not kill him
yet when we lie or anything
he sends floods and kills almost all of us
Exstream much?



if god knows we cant help but sin then why punish us?

thats like punsihing for breathing no mater how many he killed we would not stop sining and diobeying
relizing this he sent his son

when he found wrath would not work he tried love (i give him credit for this/)
want proof of that just look at the
OT then the NT there is a reasson why evrey one usely first thinks they are two defreint gods
becuse he changed his taticts he decide
well killing them wont work lets try forgviing them
and this to failed
how long before he relizes
just snap your fingers and take sin away?


if i had the cure for someons desies and i did not use it on them

nd 100000000000000000000000000000 pepole die it would be my fault cause i kept the only cure their is


that most of all is his greatist evil
he lets us keep on sining when him alone can stop it

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Kentl

first i fully belive girls are equal to us men

2nd i dont belive a girl needs to have a guy to watch over him

Christianity agrees with these both.

and last but not least humans are evil
but they also have great goodness in them

It does not agree with this. Humans do not have great goodness in them, really.

just like god

Blasphemy. This is very clearly from some religion other than Christianity. Greek mythology maybe?

when we eat the furit we got the knodgleg the same he did

Nope. Are you omniscient?

before could we kill one another?

Probably actually.

could we lie?

Probably. It does not take knowledge of good and evil to lie.

could wedo anythign wrong?

We were only told one thing was wrong at that point. You only take one thing off the table as morally wrong.

humans are evil and good

Not true.

god is evil and good

Nothing from Christianity. You are making a God in your image.

now anyways
do you deny that back then women could not be in the same worship area as the men?
they ahd their own

1) I do not deny there was gender segregation. However, this is not evidence of a hierarchy actually. You can have seperate things for seperate genders.
2) Women have their own bathrooms. Does that mean men are superior? That is your argument.

do you deny that it was REALLY hard for a women to not have a husband if she did not
one of her own options was to become a prostute becuse she needed $$ for food

It could have been, but you are forgetting that it would be really hard for a man two. You are in a culture below the subsistence level and banding together was mutually beneficial, which is why family groups stuck together to survive. Options we get from history are :
1) Remaining in father's house.
2) Brothers and sisters were a closer familial relation than husband and wife. Sticking with the siblings would be an option commonly excercized. Also, if things got rough at home or your families had a fight, in the greco roman world a woman was honor bound, (as were men) to go with siblings.
3) We see numerous female occupations and independently wealthy women in the Greco Roman world. Lydia in acts is an example of a career woman.
Prostitution is NOT the only option. Whoever says that has not read their history.

do you deny that the bible verse i posted said

What are you talking about?

god made the phroor say no and STILL punsihed him for it

Nope. Pharaoh actually is listed as hardening his heart several times before God is mentioned doing a thing.

and if you want to punshie someone find
but dont punish babys who have done nothing
his wrath always gets other pepole hurt in the procces
why yes they are not clean of sin
i dont think he is either

So in other words, they get their due, but you believe in a different God than the Bible, (you clearly do if you are making a claim that this god you are speaking of sins) and you are mad at him because he sins.

Well done. Your false idol here does not deserve worship, but make no mistake, this god you have invented has little in common with the god of the Bible.
Essentially, you are pulling arguments out of thin air, pasting them to the bible and crying that the bible is wrong when what is wrong is the false god you invented.

just becuse a man sined dose not give me the right to kill him

Are you God? Did you make man?

If I make a guitar that sucks, can I not burn it?

what i fidn is satin betreayd him and will tyr tot ake over
yet god did not kill him
yet when we lie or anything
he sends floods and kills almost all of us
Exstream much?

Yes, burning in the lake of fire forever is nothing. (Satan's destiny)

You have lied. Has God killed you with a flood? If yes, you are a ghost and can not type. If no, then obviously your argument here is silly.

if god knows we cant help but sin then why punish us?

You can help sinning. Frankly, this is making excuses so you will blame God for what you do wrong. It is an excuse not to look at how wicked your own heart is. Or do we have that great goodness within? Where did it go again? I am saying that individually we choose to sin. We are wicked.


Your argument is silly from here on out. Honestly, it belongs in theology and I am not moving it. Shawn, you need to cut it out.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

I'm not Shawn, but...

That seems like a cop-out.

Objection: "God is cruel because of X!"
Response: "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

It's not the full answer to the problem itself, I wouldn't claim it to be, but deciding whether we believe if God is wise or not significantly affects how we approach the problem of human suffering.

For if God was not wiser than man, then the implications are that suffering is meaningless, and can be attributed to an imperfect God. Which in itself makes no sense, because how can God be imperfect and remain God?

[Kentl]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Christianity agrees with these both.

i dont call submiting
equal

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

It does not agree with this. Humans do not have great goodness in them, really.

have not many pepole scarficed them selfs for many amny pepoel?
just as christ did (not on the same scale)

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Blasphemy. This is very clearly from some religion other than Christianity. Greek mythology maybe?

not true i get it form the bible
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

what is so bad about us knowing good and evil?
why cant we live forever
why could he not just take away the knodlage?

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Nope. Are you omniscient?

no but i do have the knoaldge of good and evil
and if god had let us stay we would have lived forever just like him

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Probably actually.
Probably. It does not take knowledge of good and evil to lie.

so how did the fruit bring sin in to the world?
or was sin alredy there?
in which case why kick us out?

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

We were only told one thing was wrong at that point. You only take one thing off the table as morally wrong.

so if i was never told killing was wrong
it would not be sin?
is igronce bliss

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Not true.

jesues even talks about the goodness in men

storys of pepole helping others on the side of the road
pepole giving evreything when it was very liltle yet giving more then anyone

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Nothing from Christianity. You are making a God in your image.

the problem is you think god can do what he wants becuse he created us
i refuse to belive this
if i ever mad a living being i would not have the right to do what i want to it

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

1) I do not deny there was gender segregation. However, this is not evidence of a hierarchy actually. You can have seperate things for seperate genders.
2) Women have their own bathrooms. Does that mean men are superior? That is your argument.

1. yes but tell me why cant women be leaders in the church?
2. no that is there to keep form many things (sexaul being one that comes to mind)

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

It could have been, but you are forgetting that it would be really hard for a man two. You are in a culture below the subsistence level and banding together was mutually beneficial, which is why family groups stuck together to survive. Options we get from history are :
1) Remaining in father's house.
2) Brothers and sisters were a closer familial relation than husband and wife. Sticking with the siblings would be an option commonly excercized. Also, if things got rough at home or your families had a fight, in the greco roman world a woman was honor bound, (as were men) to go with siblings.
3) We see numerous female occupations and independently wealthy women in the Greco Roman world. Lydia in acts is an example of a career woman.
Prostitution is NOT the only option. Whoever says that has not read their history.

1. pepole do that now days even in the ebst ecomnic place on earth
2. this is simply not true by the bible the wife and husband became "one flesh"
3. how many of those where becuse they married a guy who gave them it?

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

What are you talking about?


Nope. Pharaoh actually is listed as hardening his heart several times before God is mentioned doing a thing.

so what?
just beucse he said no before dose not mean when he says yes god can make him say no then punshi him for it

be like this
"let my pepole go"
"no"
pluge
"okay go"
changed his mind
"let my pepole go
"no"
plauge
and on and on in till
"let my pepole go"
"ok i,ll" (god hardnes his hear)
"no:
god kills all the kids for soemthjing HE did

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

So in other words, they get their due, but you believe in a different God than the Bible, (you clearly do if you are making a claim that this god you are speaking of sins) and you are mad at him because he sins.

i dont feel him being the maker of the rules lets him break it
thats just me

pepoel say "he cant do worng becuse he is god"
but he did do wrong
he messed up with satin
he messed up with humans

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Well done. Your false idol here does not deserve worship, but make no mistake, this god you have invented has little in common with the god of the Bible.
Essentially, you are pulling arguments out of thin air, pasting them to the bible and crying that the bible is wrong when what is wrong is the false god you invented.

they are not pulled out of thin air
god did floor the world
god did harden the heart in egpyt

false?
i dont think so

unless you belvie since he is god he can do what he wants (which i dont)
then this is not a false god

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Are you God? Did you make man?

If I make a guitar that sucks, can I not burn it?

yes but a living thing is compltly defreint let alone the most advanced lviing thing (maybe beisdes the angles) god ever mdae

if i made a baby right could i kill it?
no
i dont think just becuse you make life you have the right to take it away

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Yes, burning in the lake of fire forever is nothing. (Satan's destiny)

yeha but in till then god lets him have free reing much like when god did all of that to JOB

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

You have lied. Has God killed you with a flood? If yes, you are a ghost and can not type. If no, then obviously your argument here is silly.

this si silly

i never said god killed me i said he killed way more then any one

hitler did not kill me so he is not bad?
that makes no secnce

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

You can help sinning. Frankly, this is making excuses so you will blame God for what you do wrong. It is an excuse not to look at how wicked your own heart is. Or do we have that great goodness within? Where did it go again? I am saying that individually we choose to sin. We are wicked.

the bible says we have no hope of stoping sin
but no mater how much we pray to god sin dose not stop
ou can help but you cant stop it
sining is like breathing to humans
no mater how hard you try you WILL fail there is no maybe this is a garntie
i have goodness within
so do you
so dose evrey one
see with knoadgle of good and evil
we god evil
but we also got good

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Your argument is silly from here on out. Honestly, it belongs in theology and I am not moving it. Shawn, you need to cut it out.

if you move it fine i how ever will not be able to post
my arugment is not silly
it is taken storys form the bible and not leting some guy kill us just becuse
"he is all powerful"

i dont see whats silly with thinking someone dose not have the right to kill billions yet we call him the kindes thing their is

that to me is silly
i dont think you would call hitler nice

[Rainer.]

Shawn's "god" is not all-knowing, not all-wise, not all-present, and not all-powerful. This is not the Christian God.

This is therefore not for the Advice forum.

Soli Deo Gloria

[BillSPrestonEsq]

I am going to respond to all these false charges against Christianity here real quick.

Originally Posted by Kentl

i dont call submiting
equal

You should. IN the passage, the word submit is used only in the context of the command to all believers. In Phillipians 2 as well, we see the command to submit fleshed out. All believers are to submit to each other regardless of gender, period.

have not many pepole scarficed them selfs for many amny pepoel?
just as christ did (not on the same scale)

None.

Nobody has sacrificed themselves to save a world who killed them. Nobody else had the capacity. And people who die for others do so for very different reasons than Christ. Also, very seldom do you know someone who died to save a friend. It is rare, even if you miss the fact that one is for enemies, the other is for friends.

not true i get it form the bible

This is what we call a lie. No more, no less.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

what is so bad about us knowing good and evil?

A lot actually. I am going to say this. Knowledge is pain in a very real sense. Who is happier, you, or a puppy that runs free? My money is on the puppy. The more you learn, the more you have to fear, the more things there are to worry about...

why cant we live forever

The flood answers this actually. Because we are evil creatures. It kind of limits just how much mayhem we can cause in our brief lives.

why could he not just take away the knodlage?

So it is God's fault we disobeyed him, took something that did not belong to us, did something we were commanded not to, and God is bad for not removing the consequence? That is twisted logic at best. Besides, man chose it.

no but i do have the knoaldge of good and evil
and if god had let us stay we would have lived forever just like him

Yeah, that is sort fo what it says, though there is a flaw in what you say, when you say, just like him. We would not be just like him. We would have sinned, he would not have.

so how did the fruit bring sin in to the world?

It didn't. Man's decision to violate God's command did.

or was sin alredy there?

The serpent certainly seems sentient and sinful.

in which case why kick us out?

Mercy, actually. I know this might sound insane, but once the fruit was eaten and man had knowledge of good and evil, this world we see is in decay. Most old folks I know do not want to live forever on this earth. Only the young do. Even healthy old folks get tired of the betrayals, hatred, and such that our world has to offer.

so if i was never told killing was wrong
it would not be sin?

If you had no knowledge of good or evil, why would you kill? I think this goes places you wouldn't really find useful for making an argument.

is igronce bliss

In a sense, of course it is!

jesues even talks about the goodness in men

No, he doesn't.

storys of pepole helping others on the side of the road

The parable of the good Samaritan is not about great kindness, but rather it is a fairy tale of a sort to show the wickedness of man. The Samaritan is not such a grand gesture of human kindness, but rather basic civility, which Jesus' audience lacked.

pepole giving evreything when it was very liltle yet giving more then anyone

An elderly woman giving her last coins to the temple is not an evidence of human kindness apart from God. It is a person, so devoted to God, that she gives her last coins. This is a ridiculous example to attempt to turn it on its head and show that human's have intrinsic goodness. That is missing the point entirely.

the problem is you think god can do what he wants becuse he created us

No, Duh. Create your own universe and you get to make the rules for it. Let's look at the problems here. Why is it wrong to take something from someone, be it stealing, or taking a life? It is wrong, because it is not yours. God as creator is owner of his creation. Since he owns everything, its kind of impossible to take something that isn't his.

i refuse to belive this

That's rather silly of you. I make a guitar. It is mine to do with as I like. I (do not currently, but really, really, really want an english bulldog bad) have a dog. It has puppies. I could sell them, keep them or do with them as I like. That analogy breaks down after a point because I did not create a dog out of nothing. But the point should be clear that if you make something, and all it's components, that thing belongs to you.

if i ever mad a living being i would not have the right to do what i want to it

Actually, if you created it out of nothing, I think you would get a free pass on that.

1. yes but tell me why cant women be leaders in the church?

That is made up crap. Firstly, if you understood church structure at the time of Paul's writing, it appears that it was entirely segregated at least in some areas. There is a need for women to teach women and women to take care of women in the church. From what I have read, I would wager the ideal of Paul's day for a formal gathering, rather than a simple meal would likely have been entirely segregated. But seeing as Paul had female deacons, female teachers, etc. it appears that this is just based on a complete misconception of the text.

2. no that is there to keep form many things (sexaul being one that comes to mind)

Which is why, in the world of the Bible, most things were far more segregated. Even in matriarchal cultures you find this, especially where purity is prized.

1. pepole do that now days even in the ebst ecomnic place on earth

No, they really don't. Not in the same way. It was a completely different thing. The concept of the blood family was immensely tighter. My family is borderline tribal and the stuff I read out of this era makes us look like a loose knit bunch of strangers.

2. this is simply not true by the bible the wife and husband became "one flesh"

This is a lie, simply put. The idea of becoming one flesh did not supercede the cultural bond of kinship in the ancient world. It probably should have, but it did not. I could point to literally hundreds of examples of kinship between siblings being much closer than spouses, if you are interested.

3. how many of those where becuse they married a guy who gave them it?

Probably about the same number as now. Lydia in acts is independently wealthy. There is no mention of a husband. There are numerous examples of wealthy women in scripture and period documents which seem to be career women. We know for example, she was involved in the making of purple die.

so what?
just beucse he said no before dose not mean when he says yes god can make him say no
then punshi him for it

He never says yes. That is why this argument is so lame.



be like this
"let my pepole go"
"no"
pluge
"okay go"
changed his mind
"let my pepole go
"no"
plauge
and on and on in till
"let my pepole go"
"ok i,ll" (god hardnes his hear)
"no:
god kills all the kids for soemthjing HE did
[/quote]

No he doesn't. And I might add that this is in symmetry to what Pharaoh did to the Israelites by ordering all the newborn boys killed. It is actually a far softened blow of what Pharaoh had already done to Israel.

i dont feel him being the maker of the rules lets him break it

He didn't break the rules.
The simple thing is this. He is God, you are not. This requires an entirely different set of rules. Can you tell your dog to sit and it be required to obey? Can your dog tell you to sit and you be required to obey? Yet the difference between you and God is far more vast, than you and your dog.

thats just me

And you are wrong. Because you have made yourself your own God.

pepoel say "he cant do worng becuse he is god"
but he did do wrong
he messed up with satin
he messed up with humans

No, God did not do wrong. Satan, (not satin, the silky fabric) and humanity both chose to sin. Being foolish enough to blame God for your mistakes is merely a refusal to own who you are and what you have done. The reason people do this is they want to see an idealized version of themselves that does not exist without looking at the darkness within.

they are not pulled out of thin air

Your moral standards for God are pulled out of thin air. First of all, you fail to see that creating something gives you any right over it.

god did floor the world

Righteously, and not because people lied. The reasons given are perverse. Basically, why, is that the world was irredeemable. The reasons given delve into sexual perversion, witchcraft, and man's striving against God.

god did harden the heart in egpyt

After Pharaoh did it himself.

unless you belvie since he is god he can do what he wants (which i dont)
then this is not a false god

In other words, you are viewing yourself as God's god and him as your slave, which is beyond silly.

yes but a living thing is compltly defreint let alone the most advanced lviing thing (maybe beisdes the angles) god ever mdae

This is a weird argument. If I make a computer, I can't destroy it, even if it is the most advanced computer out there? (oddly, this argument makes me think you are taking the side of the machines in terminator)

if i made a baby right could i kill it?
no
i dont think just becuse you make life you have the right to take it away

You are once again talking about something on the same plane as you. If you are human and you make a baby you are creating what is an equal. You, no matter how inflated your ego, are not a God. Let's say you create an amoeba. DO you have the right to destroy it? Yeah. It's an amoeba. You and God are not the same. You seem to have lost that somewhere along the way.

yeha but in till then god lets him have free reing much like when god did all of that to JOB

In Job, you see an example of theodicy, and God's actions in Job are pretty much described as being restoring Job to greater wealth and coming to Job's aid at the end of the book.

this si silly

i never said god killed me i said he killed way more then any one

But you said he did it for minor things, which is frankly, a great big lie. The flood was not because God was annoyed because people lied, but because creation was going past redemption, and essentially starting over with a clean slate.

hitler did not kill me so he is not bad?

No, my point was that what you are attributing to God was a lie. A question far closer to the issue would actually be, would killing hitler to end the hollocaust be wrong? The ending of life as it had gotten was necessary to redeem the world. The picture given is not of a big bad God deciding billy lied, so bobby and susie must drown. That is what you are trying to make it, but the picture given is of bloodshed, violence, and perversion that required a restart with the one okay dude left. (and Noah is not portrayed as perfect either. He gets hammered after the flood)

that makes no secnce

My point was, that the lie you tell about it being for some petty thing is silly, and the fact that you are alive to tell the tale proves that obviously God doesn't go around just killing people for what you claim.

the bible says we have no hope of stoping sin

Lie, and one you have been shown repeatedly to be nothing but a lie from Hell.
1 Cor. 10:13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

but no mater how much we pray to god sin dose not stop

Right, scripture doesn't say prayer is a magic elixir. It tells us to obey, and that we can. It tells us how to stop sinning and that we can.

ou can help but you cant stop it
sining is like breathing to humans
no mater how hard you try you WILL fail there is no maybe this is a garntie

Obviously, you are not getting this crap from the Bible which teaches that we can have victory over sin.

i have goodness within

Are you freaking kidding me? Of course you don't. Or was that sin, like breathing part, the goodness within? Basically, within Christianity, any goodness we have is Christ's work of redemption in our lives. What you are saying makes no sense, if you look at what you said.

so do you

No, that's just silly. I know my heart, which is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

so dose evrey one

No, they don't. You go from saying everybody sins like breathing, and that they are good inside.

You need to realize this: You are not good, I am not good. Look in yourself at what really lies within without trying to pawn the bad you do off on bipolar or God, and look at yourself. You will see that you are quite evil, just like everybody else to walk the earth.

see with knoadgle of good and evil
we god evil
but we also got good

This is ridiculous. We did not get good or evil. We got knowledge of both by being evil. Your argument here is much the same as saying that by gaining knowledge of a space shuttle, I possess a space shuttle and can launch to the moon. If I fully read the plans and know all about a space shuttle, all I have is knowledge in my head. It does not mean I have a single heat resistant tile, or the resources to make one. Nor do you posses the resources to be morally good on your own, at all.

if you move it fine i how ever will not be able to post
my arugment is not silly
it is taken storys form the bible and not leting some guy kill us just becuse
"he is all powerful"

But that is not the reason scripture ever gives.

Your argument is silly because God is not some guy. He is not a man. He is not a human, and he is not your equal. He is the creator who created you out of nothing. That is why.

i dont see whats silly with thinking someone dose not have the right to kill billions yet we call him the kindes thing their is

This argument is based on so many pieces of lies and no truth.
1) God is not described as killing billions. If any creature is to take that designation, it would be man. God is seen as sometimes partially judging the wicked things in the world, stopping horrible things people are doing.
2) You assume God is like you.
3) You assume that a creator has no right over his creation.

i dont think you would call hitler nice

No, but you would call God evil, for stopping Hitler. That is milder than why the flood was called for. Also, Pharaoh was not so far off from Hitler in his policies. Genocide, work camps, and you call God evil for stopping it. I guess you would have to call Hitler nice for God to be bad in the scenario's you propose as being righteous.