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Unread 07-31-2010, 09:22 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
I love playing guitar in orchestras; particularly pit orchestras for theatre productions. I recently played guitar in a production of The Sound of Music. When I got the gig I was given the guitar book (which was around 35 pages I think) that, of course, was all in standard notation. There were also some notes on changes and a few added parts done by the conductor to make the music match this particular production. Since this is the score for the original broadway production recordings are rare, and the guitar is mostly a supporting instrument so it's not easily heard. The new parts that were given to me have never been recorded or played. This means I can't listen to a recording to learn the parts.

Tab for this music simply does not exist (I will give you $1000 if you can find me that score in guitar tab )
do you mean this? Sound Of Music - Edelweis Guitar Tab | Songsterr





Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
I also once played a German written guitar & marimba duet and I challenge you to find tab for that piece!
give me the name odds are i will find it




Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
You mentioned that tab was better because you were able to read and learn a piece in tab in a much shorter time than in standard notation. Does it not make sense that for a person who reads standard notation fluently, but has never read tab that it would be quicker and easier for that person to read and learn the piece in standard notation rather than tab?
no, i know no one who can sit there with stander notiong and play as good as they could if they had a power tab or something

Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
What I'm trying to say is that tab is a musical language for guitarists, and that's fine, but there is already a standard musical language that has been around so long and become so engrained in the culture of music around the world that it isn't going to be replaced by something that is seemigly simpler; it's the same reason the metric system never caught on in America even though it makes far more sense.
horses, they where used for cenrtrys even when cars where first around horses where around
over time (long time was longer then reading music been around) it went out and a "new language came in"
languages do die and i think stander music the way we know it will die
Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
For example, my wife plays piano and reads notation like she's reading a children's book. When it already works so well for her to quickly and easily read a piece in standard notation why would she waste the time and energy to learn an entirely different system?
i speak in english the hardist lanuage to learn
dose it mean i should not try to learn defreint langauges?
Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Besides if you really learn the standard notation system you'll discover it really is much easier and much much more convenient than tab. On a given sheet of music I know exactly where to find the key signature, I see three sharps and know I'm in A major, I can glance over the line of notes and quickly outline the chord progression, I see what clef I'm in and where F is. Not to mention when rhythm's get tricky it is way way way way way easier to read them in standard notation. When I'm playing stuff with frequent key changes, various odd time signature changes and things like quintuplets mixed in with combinations of duplet and triplet figures with ties, grace notes and ornaments it is SO much easier to read in standard notation rather than tab.
Standard notation is also universal, meaning it works for every musical instrument. Tab only works for guitar. You could possibly come up with tab systems for other instruments, but they would all be different and it would be a nightmare to try to arrange stuff for large ensembles.
its no eazyer

if you gave my guitar teacher (who dose sight read evry well and plays in big bands)
standerd music
or songster
sonsgter is more eazy
he gets it done way fatser he knows what to play
it might not tell you the key (some do by telling you the first note or chord name
but if you read music you should know how to tell the key by what you play anways)
songster also tells you when the time thing chages always
it tells you the BPM even tells you ghow lopud to play

simply it dose evrey single thing reading music dose but it has six lines (one for each string)
instead of five lines that you have to work hard at (six months or more and thats just to ahve a basic thing)
plus you know what notes to play you can traspone it anyway you want
change evreythign about it
even add flavlor with out having to buy a new papaer evrey time

it seems way beter

Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Imagine if you are composing a piece, or conducting a small ensemble and instead of needing to know one notation system to write and communicate all your ideas to your ensemble you had to know 20!! It would be like conducting a group where instead of everyone speaking one language you had one guy who only speaks English, one who only speaks Spanish, One French, One Twi, one Amharic, one Latvian, one Russian, one Italian, one Japanese and one Icelandic. Every time you had to communicate something instead of saying it once, you would have to be fluent in 10 different languages to say it 10 different times in all 10 different languages! Sheesh... does that really sound easier and more convenient to you?
you forgot one thing
you can learn each laugnage in five miunits flat

Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Even if I'm just leading a small worship or rock band with guitar, bass, keyboard and drums. Assuming there was a tab system for all these instruments, if I was writing and arranging music I would need to write out separate charts for every instrument in their respective tabs, I would need to learn to read and write four different notation systems and I would have to communicate ideas differently to every member in the band. With standard notation I can write one lead sheet in one notation system that every member can read. Again, which way sounds easier to you?
another problem
look at any standerd notation a good composer has other pepole playing other pices
in other words more then one lead sheat

plus bass and guitar are the same

singer only needs to know the note
drumer
well i dont think drumers even read music lol
but they just need sings like S C B ect

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Originally Posted by scared2mosh View Post
I honestly would have guessed the actual Kentl was mulletman and vice versa...
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Originally Posted by jeepnstein View Post
Apparently, he gave you persistence by the truckload.
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Originally Posted by TFK14 View Post
Ok, the fact you spelled that right proves it.

Last edited by thesteve; 08-01-2010 at 01:44 AM.
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Unread 07-31-2010, 10:33 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
Haha, nice try. But not even REMOTELY close!!

You gave me a link to the melody alone for one song. I'm talking about the entire score for the broadway production.

I think it's safe to say you just proved my point on that one


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
give me the name odds are i will find it

I'll have to try to remember the title, but I seriously, seriously doubt it. It was a very obscure piece. We had to order the chart from Germany because no one in the US had it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
if you gave my guitar teacher (who dose sight read evry well and plays in big bands)
standerd music
or songster
sonsgter is more eazy
he gets it done way fatser he knows what to play
That's great for your teacher. Now give a horn player a sheet of tab and see how quickly they are able to play what is written on it compared to a sheet of standard notation. Does one person's ability to do one more quickly really say anything about the system as a whole?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
it might not tell you the key (some do by telling you the first note or chord name
but if you read music you should know how to tell the key by what you play anways)
songster also tells you when the time thing chages always
it tells you the BPM even tells you ghow lopud to play
So you're admitting it doesn't give you all the information that standard notation gives you?
And the first note or chord does not tell the key of a song.
The time signature isn't the only change. When things start getting more complex rhythmically it's necessary to know the correct grouping of notes and their relationship to the time signature. Often times you'll see things like 11 notes to be played over 2 beats, or 32nd note runs mixed with sixtuplets, ornaments and other such fun which is way way harder to notate and read in tab than in standard notation. With standard notation the notes and rhythm are portrayed conveniently in one line. With tab you have three options.
1) have a line of tab and a second line of standard notation above it. This sort of defeats your idea of tab only so we have to rule it out
2) try to notate the rhythm on the tab line. This gets very cumbersome and confusing with more complicated rhythms
3) some sort of series of dots and dashes that convey rhythm. Unfortunately these are way more complicated than necessary.

So standard notation still comes out on top for the ease and convenience in which it allows us to notate a score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
simply it dose evrey single thing reading music dose but it has six lines (one for each string)
Except you just told me it doesn't do every single thing reading music does

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
instead of five lines that you have to work hard at (six months or more and thats just to ahve a basic thing)
But like I was trying to say before it's not hard for people who know how to do it. No harder than reading a Bible written in Chinese for a person who knows Chinese. If I look at a Bible written in Chinese it's going to look much harder to me and I might say why not use English, it gives you every single thing this does, but it's much quicker and easier to read. But that's because I know English. Do you see where I'm going with this?

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Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
plus you know what notes to play you can traspone it anyway you want
change evreythign about it
even add flavlor with out having to buy a new papaer evrey time
And you can do the same thing in standard notation. Plus, with standard notation a musican who plays an instrument besides the guitar can look at it and know what's going on. Tab can only be deciphered by guitarists...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
you forgot one thing
you can learn each laugnage in five miunits flat
Even if you can are you saying it's easier and less cumbersome to have to use all those different languages rather than just use one universal language?!

Personally when I'm leading a large ensemble I would much rather use one common language, rather than try to remember 10 different ones and use each one every time I have to say something, wouldn't you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
another problem
look at any standerd notation a good composer has other pepole playing other pices
in other words more then one lead sheat
Actually no, in most small ensembles you'll have a lead sheet that is common to all instruments. Have you ever heard of the Real Book? It's a book of lead sheets for jazz standards. Every jazz player knows it and they all use it because every player in the ensemble can look at the same chart and all play along together using it. Tab doesn't allow that type of flexibility across instruments. It would need to be specific to each instrument.

In a large ensemble you will have different charts obviously, but they are still written in the same language meaning when the conductor needs to tell the ensemble something everyone knows exactly what he/she is talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
singer only needs to know the note
drumer
well i dont think drumers even read music lol
but they just need sings like S C B ect
First, drummers do read music. I played set in jazz combos in high school and majored in percussion in college, so I know a thing or two about that. Trying to read some sort of tab instead of notation for drums would just be a disaster... I'm shuddering just thinking about how cumbersome it would be

Second, how are singers going to get their notes from tab? And why is it singers don't need to know key, key changes, chord structure, harmony, time signature, rhythm etc...?


I don't mean this to be rude, but in reading your comments here I think it is obvious you've never done any real professional guitar work, or played in a large ensemble. If you had ever done so you would understand what I'm saying. If you're the kind of person who just wants to play in a rock band and tab works for you then that's great, but you're talking about things you simply don't understand here. If I were to only read tab I wouldn't be able to get any of the gigs I love to play in theaters. I would simply be laughed out of the concert hall and never get another call. I can guarantee you standard notation will continue to be the language of music, same as English will continue to be the language of England
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Unread 07-31-2010, 10:58 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Haha, nice try. But not even REMOTELY close!!

You gave me a link to the melody alone for one song. I'm talking about the entire score for the broadway production.

I think it's safe to say you just proved my point on that one
huh?
im saying they are out there
I'm sure if i knew the names and what not i would find the tab
i just typed in the sound of music in to a site that has only been up for less then 4 years and it had it
and if i wanted to i could make a song request and they whold post the other ones
plus what do you mean on ly the melody?
click on the box that says eletic guitar you can change it form melody to ryhtem




Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
I'll have to try to remember the title, but I seriously, seriously doubt it. It was a very obscure piece. We had to order the chart from Germany because no one in the US had it.
so? odds are someone in that counrty has a tab of it





Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
That's great for your teacher. Now give a horn player a sheet of tab and see how quickly they are able to play what is written on it compared to a sheet of standard notation. Does one person's ability to do one more quickly really say anything about the system as a whole?
you do relize this thred is in guitar not any toher msuci forum?
and i even said i was not sure about other isunments







Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
So you're admitting it doesn't give you all the information that standard notation gives you?
dude i did not say that i said it DOSE

besides the key thign always (and a lot fo them dont just becuse the key dose not mater)
And the first note or chord does not tell the key of a song.
Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
The time signature isn't the only change. When things start getting more complex rhythmically it's necessary to know the correct grouping of notes and their relationship to the time signature. Often times you'll see things like 11 notes to be played over 2 beats, or 32nd note runs mixed with sixtuplets, ornaments and other such fun which is way way harder to notate and read in tab
have you looked at songster?
the lines tell you the rythem they tell you evreything in a more eazy way





Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Except you just told me it doesn't do every single thing reading music does
umm show me where i said that
i said some dont tell you the key its in
but if tis clasical it dose 99% of the time



Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
But like I was trying to say before it's not hard for people who know how to do it. No harder than reading a Bible written in Chinese for a person who knows Chinese. If I look at a Bible written in Chinese it's going to look much harder to me and I might say why not use English, it gives you every single thing this does, but it's much quicker and easier to read. But that's because I know English. Do you see where I'm going with this?
so what your saying is we should not change becuse its eazyer
yet we should keep it becuse its eazyer to play with other players?

wow talk about pardox




Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Even if you can are you saying it's easier and less cumbersome to have to use all those different languages rather than just use one universal language?!
yes it took me five miunits to learn tab becuse its comon secne
a lot more pepole speak chineas then english dose that mean we should adopt there languge since its the bigst langue here and is close to being unvesal?

and tab is unveail

you go to any guitrist in the world they can learna dn play tab besuce its so simple


Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Personally when I'm leading a large ensemble I would much rather use one common language, rather than try to remember 10 different ones and use each one every time I have to say something, wouldn't you?
one problem

your only playing one instument your not playing guitars and drums at the same time

the same wya a guitist dose not need to know how to play the trabone



Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Actually no, in most small ensembles you'll have a lead sheet that is common to all instruments. Have you ever heard of the Real Book? It's a book of lead sheets for jazz standards. Every jazz player knows it and they all use it because every player in the ensemble can look at the same chart and all play along together using it. Tab doesn't allow that type of flexibility across instruments. It would need to be specific to each instrument.

In a large ensemble you will have different charts obviously, but they are still written in the same language meaning when the conductor needs to tell the ensemble something everyone knows exactly what he/she is talking about.
thats another big probelm with tabs you can memorize stuff is this not so with reading sheets?
aprently not i've never seen any of them memorize anythign



Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
First, drummers do read music. I played set in jazz combos in high school and majored in percussion in college, so I know a thing or two about that. Trying to read some sort of tab instead of notation for drums would just be a disaster... I'm shuddering just thinking about how cumbersome it would be
they dotn read the msuci stuff we do they dont see
a E note and hit the kick pedeal
they ahve a defreint form of msuic
so reaidnb music is not unvealr

Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Second, how are singers going to get their notes from tab? And why is it singers don't need to know key, key changes, chord structure, harmony, time signature, rhythm etc...?
simple sonsgter and any other thing

gives you chord strucers
harrmony
time singures and trythems

as for known keys well
quite simply they do what they do anyways they hear the sound
evrye kid i know in chouir dose not read music

i admit i dont know hwo they leaern but they dont know hwo to read msuic

(which parents are upset about becuse we are chagin the "right way"


Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
I don't mean this to be rude, but in reading your comments here I think it is obvious you've never done any real professional guitar work, or played in a large ensemble. If you had ever done so you would understand what I'm saying. If you're the kind of person who just wants to play in a rock band and tab works for you then that's great, but you're talking about things you simply don't understand here. I can guarantee you standard notation will continue to be the language of music, same as English will continue to be the language of England
first off english has more then one version
odl and new
and probely more in betwen
so ti has changed just as reading music will

no language stays ther same forevr


2nd
no i ahve not but my guitar teacher has
and he perfers tabs and so dose many toher guitists i know

and have i done "pro msucuion stuff"
no not yet
but once agin the teacher has
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scared2mosh View Post
I honestly would have guessed the actual Kentl was mulletman and vice versa...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepnstein View Post
Apparently, he gave you persistence by the truckload.
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Originally Posted by TFK14 View Post
Ok, the fact you spelled that right proves it.

Last edited by thesteve; 08-01-2010 at 01:48 AM.
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Unread 07-31-2010, 11:37 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
huh?
im saying they are out there
I'm sure if i knew the names and what not i would find the tab
Ok, here's a test for tab. Here are the titles of four songs I've played for gigs I've been hired to do. If you can find me accurate, useable tab for these songs I'll concede

1. Blood, Not Bloody - The Alan Baird Project
2. Blind - Paul Pavlik
3. Entre' Act - Fiddler on the Roof
4. Overture, scene change music - The Sound of Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
i just typed in the sound of music in to a site that has only been up for less then 4 years and it had it
No, it didn't have it. I clicked through the different instruments on there. That sheet wouldn't work at all for what I was playing. The chord structure isn't the same, some necessary embellishments are left out. There is no cue for following the vocalist, or the theatrical timing. It isn't even in the right key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
and if i wanted to i could make a song request and they whold post the other ones
Who would post them? How would they figure out the tab? There are no recordings of these songs to go off of. The only way to write a tab for it would be to read the original score in standard notation and then write a tab from it.

if you can find me a tab transcribed copy of the entire guitar book for the broadway production of The Sound of Music I will give you $1000000
The fact is you won't find it, because guitarists who play that kind of music don't bother with tab. Why would they? They already have a notation system that works perfect for what they do. Why would they bother going through the hassle of re-writing everything in a different format when it is already there for them in standard notation?

It doesn't matter anyway because when you play in that type of setting you don't have time to go find the tab. This is what this looks like. I showed up at the rehearsal hall and was handed the guitar music book. We then sat down as an ensemble and did a rough read through playing the songs. The conductor would stop occasionally to give us notes about the performance, changes to certain parts and additions that we would write in. Some of these things had been pre-written by the conductor for us and were included in the book.

Now tell me, even if the tab exists how does it do me any good when I'm given the score and I have to play it 5 minutes later? I don't have time to go find a computer, search through tab archives and find the tab. Besides, tab doesn't exist for the new sections the composer wrote -he just wrote them!

Besides, why if I'm limited by only reading tab then I have to go waste time searching the internet for tabs when I already have the score in standard notation right in front of me... why waste the time and go through all the hassle of tracking down tab? And even if I can find the tab it has to be the exact same version that the rest of the ensemble is using otherwise it won't work, so I would still need to be able to read the standard notation score to know if my tab score was correct enough to be used.

Plus, it's very common for things to be changed quickly and frequently in a theatre setting. Often during a run through the conductor will make a decision to change keys in certain spots, substitute chords, change some notes or often you will be asked to play chords in different voicings. Many times I'll be playing something like a Bbdim(#9) and be asked to play it in specific voicings using only specific notes. And I'll have to make these changes right on the spot. If I can't read music these things are much harder to do. Tab doesn't offer the flexibility for me to be able to do these things sitting in the pit before a show starts where I don't have access to a computer with internet...

So, as I said before, in these situations tab is completely meaningless. If I can't read standard notation I get kicked out and they hire a real professional who knows what he's doing who can.

I wish you were in Colorado, I have the guitar score for Fiddler on the Roof I use for practice sometimes. If you looked through it you would understand what I'm talking about and why tab simply wouldn't work for this type of guitar playing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
so? odds are someone in that counrty has a tab of it
Like I said above, maybe so. But I don't have time to go searching the internet for it. And luckily I don't have to search for it because I've already got the standard notation score sitting in front of me
If I know how to read standard notation all I have to do is look at what I have. If I don't know how to read it I have to go waste time scouring the internet trying to find some tab version of it somewhere. And even if I do find it I have no way of knowing how accurate it is if I can't read the original score.
Once again tab is meaningless in this situation. It's more of a hassle than just reading the chart that's available.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
besides the key thign always (and a lot fo them dont just becuse the key dose not mater)
Actually the key is a very important part of the song and something everyone playing needs to know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
yes it took me five miunits to learn tab becuse its comon secne
a lot more pepole speak chineas then english dose that mean we should adopt there languge since its the bigst langue here and is close to being unvesal?
But tab only applies to guitar so this is a mute point. Even there were tab for every instrument I still think it would be easier to use one universal language with an ensemble rather than multiple different ones don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
and tab is unveail

you go to any guitrist in the world they can learna dn play tab besuce its so simple
Maybe so, but the point is it is only universal to guitar players, for any instrument other than the guitar it is meaningless which is why standard notation continues to be used. It is truley universal among all instruments. Which is going to be more useful, a language that is universal to one instrument, or one that is universal to all instruments?

Besides, there's still the problem of tab requiring you have a computer with internet and you can find the tab for what you are playing. I once played a wedding way out in the mountains where there wasn't a computer for miles. When we arrived we were thrown a curve and asked to play Misty and a few old jazz standards at the beginning of the reception. One of our band members luckily had a real book so we had the sheet in standard notation there to read from. I had to play the melody on guitar. If I could only read tab I wouldn't been sunk. There's no way I could access the tab for those songs out there. We wouldn't have been able to do the gig and I probably would've been fired.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
one problem

your only playing one instument your not playing guitars and drums at the same time

the same wya a guitist dose not need to know how to play the trabone
You're right, I am only playing one instrument, but I said when I'm leading. I don't know if you've ever lead an ensemble or conducted before, but when you do it is necessary to know at least some about each instrument in your ensemble so you can instruct them in how the piece is to be played. Therefore if I were conducting an ensemble of, say, 15 different instruments and they all had their own "tab" instead of notation it would be necessary for me to read, interpret and communicate for each of thoose 15 separate types of tabs for everyone in the ensemble to understand how I want the piece to be performed. With standard notation I only need to know one notation system to be able to communicate with all of them. When I say something about standard notation all 15 people in the ensemble understand exactly what I'm talking about. So once again standard notation is much simpler and less cumbersome to use than tab.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
thats another big probelm with tabs you can memorize stuff is this not so with reading sheets?
aprently not i've never seen any of them memorize anythign
Of course you can memorize standard notation. However, music as complex as some of the symphonies played by orchestra's is much more difficult than memorizing a rock song. Besides, repetition and memorization don't really play a part in this discussion. You can memorize from tab, just as you can memorize from standard notation so that is another mute point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
they dotn read the msuci stuff we do they dont see
a E note and hit the kick pedeal
they ahve a defreint form of msuic
so reaidnb music is not unvealr
Trust me on this one, you don't know what you're talking about. Drummers do read music and what you said is actually very close to how it is done for non-pitched percussion instruments. Plus, even if an instrument isn't pitched it still has a specific rhythm it is playing and there is a specific spot in the song where that rhythm is played, thus the need for music notation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
simple sonsgter and any other thing
I don't understand how that answers the question about singers?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
as for known keys well
quite simply they do what they do anyways they hear the sound
evrye kid i know in chouir dose not read music
When I sang in choir reading music was a requirement.
Once you get into the realm of professional and trained singers key absolutely does matter. Listen to some jazz singers and the way they will hold a modulated note into the next chord where it becomes a different part of the composition of that chord. That type of skill comes from being able to read the music and know what is coming, it doesn't happen by sheer luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
first off english has more then one version
odl and new
and probely more in betwen
so ti has changed just as reading music will
Yes, but its still the same basic system for the most part. They didn't toss out the whole language and start over, they continued to evolve the system they had.

If I meet a guy who from Australia who speaks a different dialect of English, and another guy from Ethiopia who speaks Amharic which one am I going to have an easier time having a conversation with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
no language stays ther same forevr
True, and standard notation hasn't stayed the same forever. But when we need to make changes we make them to the current system, we don't toss out the whole thing and start over. Standard notation has evolved and changed as music changes.

The problem with your position is you are assuming that standard notation is so hard and complicated that it will inevitably be replaced by this new easy system. The fact is standard notation isn't hard and complicated for those who know it. For the vast majority of musicians it is the easiest, most informative and most efficient way of reading and writing music. Like the old saying goes, why fix it if it aint broke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
2nd
no i ahve not but my guitar teacher has
and he perfers tabs and so dose many toher guitists i know

and have i done "pro msucuion stuff"
no not yet
but once agin the teacher has
If you ever do any professional playing you will understand what I am talking about here. I know a lot of this doesn't make sense to you because you've never had any experience with it, but you'll have to trust me; you're talking about things you know nothing about here. Tab is ok for things like learning a simple rock song, but it is just silly to think that it will somehow replace standard notation as the language of music. Some day you'll understand

I don't know how old you are. Are you in school? If so does your school have a jazz band, or an orchestra? You should go sit in on a rehearsal some time and see how things are done. If it's a jazz band take a peek at the charts the guitarists are using. Maybe talk to them a little about what they are playing. Listening to a conductor work and watching an ensemble rehearse will start to give you an idea of what I'm talking about here and why tab would just be a silly idea to people who play in those type of settings. It would be good experience and might even convince you to keep working on reading standard notation
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Unread 08-01-2010, 12:33 AM   #65
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thats another big probelm with tabs you can memorize stuff is this not so with reading sheets?
aprently not i've never seen any of them memorize anythign
How do you think concert pianists do it? Jazz ensembles? Vocalists? These people all use some form of standard notation, and usually, have it memorised. When you have a really important performance, you should not need to rely on any kind of written music.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 05:04 AM   #66
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thats another big probelm with tabs you can memorize stuff is this not so with reading sheets?
aprently not i've never seen any of them memorize anythign
I know someone else already adressed this, but this part is just so utterly ridiculous i felt I had to say something.

The entire point of practice is to achieve a form of memorization, and familiarity with the piece of music.

If you dont remember anything, then how will you perform it?


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By the way, I know quite a few professional musicians, and they all can sight read a piece once and play it near perfectly.
Obviously when you read something for the first time you may miss a small detail here or there, so that isnt a problem with the system, thats a problem with the nature of the mind.

You cannot, as a guitarist, graduate from college with a music degree and not know how to sight read. It just isnt possible.


Shawn, you are complaining about learning something in 6 months. The guys I know have spent decades perfecting their craft.

Personally, Im just scratching the surface of what I can do with sight reading, and already I can see its easier than tab. Way easier.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 09:41 AM   #67
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Here's a little example for you Kentl, to show why tab simply isn't useful for this type of music.

Here's a link I found for tab to the song Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof on Songsterr

Tradition


This tab is for the violin motif arranged for guitar.

Now here's a picture of my guitar score for Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof




Now as we compare we notice there are a few differences. First, the tab is in the wrong key. It's rhythm is also incorrect (you can see the actual transcription for the violin motif in the final bars of the score on the picture).
Also, notice all the markings on the score that are cues for the performance? Those are all missing from the tab.

The score is also outlined in a way that makes it easy to follow and even find your place if you get lost. The tab has no cues, nothing to go off of except for bar numbers. And speaking of bar numbers, notice that the score is 240 bars long; the tab is 36 bars long... they missed something somewhere.

The tab, you will notice does not include any of the actual guitar parts for the song. Not even the chord structure.

Another problem with the tab. Notice that in the break after bar 225 I'm switching over to mandolin. If this were tab an entirely different tab notation would have to be written for the mandolin. With the standard notation it is all written using the same convenient notation. Much easier.

If I were performing this piece with an ensemble this tab would be completely useless to me. When we started playing everyone would probably stop and look at me wondering why I'm playing the violin part a major third higher instead of playing my own guitar part

Not to mention that fact that I'll finish at bar 36 while the rest of the ensemble still has 204 bars to go

This is why professional guitarists, and guys like me, continue to use standard notation. It's the standard language of the trade. When you go out to a gig you know you're going to be handed standard notation scores. No one gives you tab. Many times you will get the score and then have to play it immediately after. If you don't know how to read the music you don't get the gig, simple as that. They show you the door and call up someone who knows what they are doing who can read it.

The score you see above I was handed to me at the first rehearsal about 5 minutes before we began the first read through. Now, granted I did have time to go home and practice and work out some of my positioning and voicings and such (this page is easy stuff compared to some of the other songs in there) but I only had a week until dress rehearsals began.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:06 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Giga Hertz View Post
How do you think concert pianists do it? Jazz ensembles? Vocalists? These people all use some form of standard notation, and usually, have it memorised. When you have a really important performance, you should not need to rely on any kind of written music.
So letís see if you donít need the stander music since you go home and memorize it
Why use stander music why not use a pro tab thing to make SURE your right and no mistakes

Its no deferent then playing along with the song
which makes it eazyer and is encoauged to play the sogn

why not see what to play whill hearing the song?

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Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Here's a little example for you Kentl, to show why tab simply isn't useful for this type of music.

Here's a link I found for tab to the song Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof on Songsterr

Tradition


This tab is for the violin motif arranged for guitar.

Now here's a picture of my guitar score for Tradition from Fiddler on the Roof

edit: BIG PAGE STRETCHING PHOTO REMOVED


Now as we compare we notice there are a few differences. First, the tab is in the wrong key. It's rhythm is also incorrect (you can see the actual transcription for the violin motif in the final bars of the score on the picture)..
first problem is how do you know the tab was not menat to be in a defreint key?
thats what trasponing is about
and how is the tyehn incorect?
i dont see it the rythem seems right to me


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it is defreint but thats becuse like anything (even when you use readin music)
you make it your "own" and good guitrist dose that
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Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Also, notice all the markings on the score that are cues for the performance? Those are all missing from the tab.

The score is also outlined in a way that makes it easy to follow and even find your place if you get lost. The tab has no cues, nothing to go off of except for bar numbers. And speaking of bar numbers, notice that the score is 240 bars long; the tab is 36 bars long... they missed something somewhere.
quitet simple its the medoly
and plus
why whold it?
its only using two insuments
becuse it only gose in till the end of the intro
whihc if you look is close to 36 bars if not right on the monny

the score dose not have clues i look at the score and i am completly lost

yes it says act one opening but thats becuse its a book
nothing will stop someone form posting the tab the same way


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Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
The tab, you will notice does not include any of the actual guitar parts for the song. Not even the chord structure.
you will also find it is only the melody which is what most pepole want to play anywyas
why ahve a rythem if no one wants to learn it?
thats like making a car with 40 seats
no one will ever use most of those seats (well unlikely) its just a waste of time and $$ so they dont do it
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Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Another problem with the tab. Notice that in the break after bar 225 I'm switching over to mandolin. If this were tab an entirely different tab notation would have to be written for the mandolin. With the standard notation it is all written using the same convenient notation. Much easier.
you would also notice that the madlion player whold have his tab

and a gutiist whould have his

much easier and means less to learn
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Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
If I were performing this piece with an ensemble this tab would be completely useless to me. When we started playing everyone would probably stop and look at me wondering why I'm playing the violin part a major third higher instead of playing my own guitar part
becuse this site loves to post ways to play toher iunsmtnets on guitar

and like you said
while reading msuic you can traspone
you can also with tab
so problem soavled i evben go far as to say there is no problem

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Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
Not to mention that fact that I'll finish at bar 36 while the rest of the ensemble still has 204 bars to go
its not the full song its only the meoldy which is only 36 long


Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
This is why professional guitarists, and guys like me, continue to use standard notation. It's the standard language of the trade. When you go out to a gig you know you're going to be handed standard notation scores. No one gives you tab. Many times you will get the score and then have to play it immediately after. If you don't know how to read the music you don't get the gig, simple as that. They show you the door and call up someone who knows what they are doing who can read it.
yes but just like 100 years ago if you finshed high school you where in for the job
now you have to finsh colloge

time changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by metropolis4 View Post
The score you see above I was handed to me at the first rehearsal about 5 minutes before we began the first read through. Now, granted I did have time to go home and practice and work out some of my positioning and voicings and such (this page is easy stuff compared to some of the other songs in there) but I only had a week until dress rehearsals began.
i could learnt eh song with tab way less then you could reading becuse the beuty is you dont have to worry about the positioning or the voicings it tells you somethign reading msuic dose not very well or even at all some times
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I honestly would have guessed the actual Kentl was mulletman and vice versa...
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Apparently, he gave you persistence by the truckload.
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Ok, the fact you spelled that right proves it.

Last edited by thesteve; 08-01-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:38 PM   #69
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Shawn, you really don't seem to understand that your methods of learning songs off of tabs does not, and will not ever, work in a professional setting. You walk into a rehearsal, you get a bunch of music sheets, and they tell you "the gig is in a week, we're playing everything just like it's written". And at that rehearsal, you better know how to read and play your part, or else you're not gonna have a job anymore.

There's no recordings to listen to. There's no online tab that is the same as what the composer of the music for the gig wrote out. There's nothing except the sheets of music you're given, and you gotta make it work.

Simply put, Shawn, you don't know anything about how important and integral standard notation is to professional music. You're not going to convince any one of us professional working musicians that we don't have to use standard notation. Because we know we do need to use standard notation, and we expect others in our industry to use standard notation as well.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:42 PM   #70
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Professional musicians don't have recordings of the music they're supposed to play. Music written in standard notation is the only form the music is in most of the time.

Shawn, you really don't seem to understand that your methods of learning songs off of tabs does not, and will not ever, work in a professional setting. You walk into a rehearsal, you get a bunch of music sheets, and they tell you "the gig is in a week, we're playing everything just like it's written". And at that rehearsal, you better know how to read and play your part, or else you're not gonna have a job anymore.


There's no recordings to listen to. There's no online tab that is the same as what the composer of the music for the gig wrote out. There's nothing except the sheets of music you're given, and you gotta make it work.
whets to stop you to go online and looking up the song is it?

ďWell real musicians donít do that?Ē

Or it just not the way its done?


there are lods of recordings on line with the songs in defreint keys
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I honestly would have guessed the actual Kentl was mulletman and vice versa...
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Apparently, he gave you persistence by the truckload.
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Ok, the fact you spelled that right proves it.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:50 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Kentl View Post
whets to stop you to go online and looking up the song is it?

“Well real musicians don’t do that?”

Or it just not the way its done?


there are lods of recordings on line with the songs in defreint keys
No, there isn't.

Please find me a tab and recording of the song "Virgin Eyes" by Tess Henley online.

I know you won't be able to, because she just wrote it last week, and I got a chart for it in standard notation.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 02:57 PM   #72
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No, there isn't.

Please find me a tab and recording of the song "Virgin Eyes" by Tess Henley online.

I know you won't be able to, because she just wrote it last week, and I got a chart for it in standard notation.
please find me standerd notation for the song
fadying away by demon hunter


you wont and its been out for many years


simple fact is neither one has evrey song writing down

more so if the band is not "big"
like her
i found other songs with that name if its a cover its a cover
im not sure

but still
the odds of any band playignt hat song before more then a month at least of it ebing out ios slim to none
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I honestly would have guessed the actual Kentl was mulletman and vice versa...
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Apparently, he gave you persistence by the truckload.
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Ok, the fact you spelled that right proves it.
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Unread 08-01-2010, 03:15 PM   #73
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blah blah blah. I missed the point and I dont care. my world is truth, and yours doesnt make any sense to me.


That may seem condescending (because it is), but thats exactly how your post read to me.

Shawn, you dont seem to understand.

There is no professional music situation that anyone will ever run into ever in which the guitarist will be handed a tab. And all the time you would spend looking for a tab, if you know what you're doing, you could be effectively practicing and playing the music.


Also, you mentioned that times change. Different things go in and out of style. So you think Standard Notation will one day no longer be the "standard".

The problem with that is that Standard Notation has existed in its current form for about 300 years. The system used prior to the one we have now was in effect for about 200 years, and only slight changes were made.

The symbols used to make Standard Notation clearer are all that has changed. But, effectively, we have had Standard Notation in its current form for about 2 - 300 years, and only minor changes have been made. And, as musical notation has become more globalized, it has also become more standardized.

Quite simply, Standard Notation is in a position to be the preferred method of notation for an inefinate period of time to come. There really is no foreseable point in the future that Standard Notation will stop being the "standard".
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Unread 08-01-2010, 03:23 PM   #74
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That may seem condescending (because it is), but thats exactly how your post read to me.

Shawn, you dont seem to understand.

There is no professional music situation that anyone will ever run into ever in which the guitarist will be handed a tab. And all the time you would spend looking for a tab, if you know what you're doing, you could be effectively practicing and playing the music.


Also, you mentioned that times change. Different things go in and out of style. So you think Standard Notation will one day no longer be the "standard".

The problem with that is that Standard Notation has existed in its current form for about 300 years. The system used prior to the one we have now was in effect for about 200 years, and only slight changes were made.

The symbols used to make Standard Notation clearer are all that has changed. But, effectively, we have had Standard Notation in its current form for about 2 - 300 years, and only minor changes have been made. And, as musical notation has become more globalized, it has also become more standardized.

Quite simply, Standard Notation is in a position to be the preferred method of notation for an inefinate period of time to come. There really is no foreseable point in the future that Standard Notation will stop being the "standard".
your just proving my point here

so in toher words

"real msucions dont use tabs"
sorry but thats the way you all come off

which back when you guys wherer learnign was said to be true but times are chaging



all i said was i belive with in the future tabs will take over for reading music

and your just proving me more right and right by keeping on saying tab is useless will never be used


becuse it proves that you guys where taguht tab was useless

back then maybe it was but with sites like songster its no loner are wrong most of them are right
just like reading music



so with out any freak acdeints hands down

if you could chooice form spending a good deal of time using stand notion
or songster tabs that ARE right

what whould you chocie and why?

and dont say becuse tis the right way to do it

and dont say becuse its the rgith way to learn



P.S how can anyone be right about an ophion? you cant so just so you know
im not saying im right your wrong im saying for me (and most pepiole i know it is eazyer)

maybe you guys need to chiil it seems like you always take what i say as me sayign its "fact"
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Unread 08-01-2010, 03:26 PM   #75
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I'd pick the one that everyone else was using, because then I'd be able to communicate with them.

That is, standard notation.
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