[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Bill

3) I do believe the government has become a tyrant under both parties. GWB and Obama are both champions of killing freedoms. Freedom has become a vice rather than a virtue, and I have found a book that does describe what we now are experiencing from the past. A lot of it has to do with theorizing on the outcome of the trajectories set way before our times. (Brave New World Revisited)

this isn't directed only at Bill. I've heard lots of people say this, especially since Obama took office by neo-cons (I'm not saying Bill is a neo-con, because I don't think he is).

Who else feels this way? I don't. There's nothing I can't do now that I could do under Bush. If anything, Obama is working to expand civil rights (repealing DADT, supporting repeal of DOMA, etc).

Can anybody name something specifically that you can't do now that Obama is president that you could do when Bush was president?

[Ax]

Originally Posted by Bryan

this isn't directed only at Bill. I've heard lots of people say this, especially since Obama took office by neo-cons (I'm not saying Bill is a neo-con, because I don't think he is).

Who else feels this way? I don't. There's nothing I can't do now that I could do under Bush. If anything, Obama is working to expand civil rights (repealing DADT, supporting repeal of DOMA, etc).

Can anybody name something specifically that you can't do now that Obama is president that you could do when Bush was president?

Buy clove cigarettes or other flavored cigarettes that aren't menthol. dot dot dot. Not that it's that egregious that he's banned flavored cigarettes, but leaving menthol? It'd be hard to argue that it's exemption wasn't racially motivated.

But you can't do it. And there, I've met your challenge.

[DropKick74]

lol

[Bryan]

ok. point taken. LOL what else?

[JerryLove]

I can't drill for oil in deep water now

Seriously though: I don't see that Obama has added new opressions that were not under GWB; but am very disappointed with his continuation of so make of GWB's practices.

[redbaron]

You can't be a journalist exposing how bad the gulf spill actually is, since they have significantly infringed on the 1st amendment in an unprecedented way.

It's not a private right that's lost, but as a country we've lost the moon & Mars, in a sense, due to a project that was 80% funded and done having the plug pulled. Frankly I don't think enough people are as pissed as they should be at Obama for canceling Orion.

Far be it from me to agree with a lot of the crap the Bush administration did though, I think the patriot act while maybe well intentioned was way too far reaching and granted far too much power to the fed.

Don't forget one of the worst things ever signed by Clinton either, that wonderful DMCA. Because that wasn't well intentioned crap that has been used to screw the consumer in a huge way.



Regarding the current administration, they've done nothing but prove themselves to be politics as usual as far as promising 'x' won't happen, and delivering boatloads of more 'x' just like the previous idiot. See: lobbyists, 'sunlight periods' for legislation, etc.

The fact that they were working so closely with BP prior to the spill as sort of a golden child for the cap & trade movement, and the fact that the party took huge sums from big tobacco to outlaw flavored tobacco products (aside from menthol, which is made in the USA, unlike cloves which are imports). etc.

The only 'change' that the administration brought was some fresh shovels to sling the same ****

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by redbaron

You can't be a journalist exposing how bad the gulf spill actually is, since they have significantly infringed on the 1st amendment in an unprecedented way.

Why? What happens if one tries? How is their speech infringed?

It's not a private right that's lost, but as a country we've lost the moon & Mars, in a sense, due to a project that was 80% funded and done having the plug pulled. Frankly I don't think enough people are as pissed as they should be at Obama for canceling Orion.

The Moon and Mars missions were nowhere near 80% funded. Funding was cut under Bush, and he put up goals that he knew he would not need to show any progress on during his 8 years... much like abandoning CAFE improvements for Hydrogen cars.

The fact that they were working so closely with BP prior to the spill as sort of a golden child for the cap & trade movement, and the fact that the party took huge sums from big tobacco to outlaw flavored tobacco products (aside from menthol, which is made in the USA, unlike cloves which are imports). etc.

BP is now connected with convincing the British of the (false) fact that the PanAm bomber was soon to die and of pressuring them to release him to get drilling rights in Lybia.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Bryan

this isn't directed only at Bill. I've heard lots of people say this, especially since Obama took office by neo-cons (I'm not saying Bill is a neo-con, because I don't think he is).

Who else feels this way? I don't. There's nothing I can't do now that I could do under Bush. If anything, Obama is working to expand civil rights (repealing DADT, supporting repeal of DOMA, etc).

Can anybody name something specifically that you can't do now that Obama is president that you could do when Bush was president?

Well, I am more referring to the public humiliation in airports, being detained at border checkpoints in Texas for a while, public monitoring of the internet. (Jerrylove actually pointed that out a while ago under Bush.)

I seriously am saying both parties are heading towards the death of liberty and freedom.

[slap_j]

Whoever the president is, they're almost certainly going to be 95% the same as their contemporary predecessors. That is unless we choose to dissolve the government as we know it and become a monarchy or a syndicalist collective or something else vastly different than a federal republic.

[fendeanson]

Bryan is right, we can still (for the most part) speak freely w/o getting arrested, but if the government isn't thrilled w/ what we say, they call us radicals and domestic terrorists. I may be wrong, but I don't remember much of that when GWB was in office.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Well, I am more referring to the public humiliation in airports, being detained at border checkpoints in Texas for a while, public monitoring of the internet. (Jerrylove actually pointed that out a while ago under Bush.)

These are other great examples of things (that are in my opinion downright wrong) that have come into play since Obama came into office.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I seriously am saying both parties are heading towards the death of liberty and freedom.

I agree with you that the Democratic Party is heading that way for sure, and unless the Republican Party makes a change, they are also currently going that direction. I think it's possible that they (the Republican Party) could make a u-turn and start going back to their conservative roots and principles, but the direction they are heading now will not lead to good things.

Just a side note, and I may be getting a little off-track, but the first thing the Republican Party should do is get rid of Micheal Steel.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by fendeanson

Bryan is right, we can still (for the most part) speak freely w/o getting arrested, but if the government isn't thrilled w/ what we say, they call us radicals and domestic terrorists. I may be wrong, but I don't remember much of that when GWB was in office.

You don't recall the "free speech zones"? Bush really loved to use those to keep protesters away while allowing supporters much better access.

[fendeanson]

Originally Posted by slap_j

You don't recall the "free speech zones"? Bush really loved to use those to keep protesters away while allowing supporters much better access.

I don't ever remember hearing about those, although if you say so, I'm sure that they existed. All I know is this: GWB never called peaceful old ladies sitting on their lawn chairs w/ signs that had swastikas on them, "radical domestic terrorists."

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by fendeanson

Bryan is right, we can still (for the most part) speak freely w/o getting arrested, but if the government isn't thrilled w/ what we say, they call us radicals and domestic terrorists. I may be wrong, but I don't remember much of that when GWB was in office.

You were not paying attention then.

These are other great examples of things (that are in my opinion downright wrong) that have come into play since Obama came into office.

Actually, those were all during or before GWB.

I agree with you that the Democratic Party is heading that way for sure, and unless the Republican Party makes a change, they are also currently going that direction. I think it's possible that they (the Republican Party) could make a u-turn and start going back to their conservative roots and principles, but the direction they are heading now will not lead to good things.

Which conservative roots and principles are those? Who would you look to historically to have upheld them?

Just a side note, and I may be getting a little off-track, but the first thing the Republican Party should do is get rid of Micheal Steel.

What do you know that they do not?

I don't ever remember hearing about those, although if you say so, I'm sure that they existed. All I know is this: GWB never called peaceful old ladies sitting on their lawn chairs w/ signs that had swastikas on them, "radical domestic terrorists."

January 2003 that President Bush was angry at opposition within the Pentagon to his push for war with Iraq. According to an unnamed White House spokesman quoted in the article, "The President considers this nation to be at war, and, as such, considers any opposition to his policies to be no less than an act of treason."

November 2003 that the Federal Bureau of Investigation "has collected extensive information on the tactics, training and organization of antiwar demonstrators and has advised local law enforcement officials to report any suspicious activity at protests to its counterterrorism squad. ...

[scared2mosh]

Originally Posted by Ax

Buy clove cigarettes or other flavored cigarettes that aren't menthol. dot dot dot. Not that it's that egregious that he's banned flavored cigarettes, but leaving menthol? It'd be hard to argue that it's exemption wasn't racially motivated.

But you can't do it. And there, I've met your challenge.

That was the first thing that popped into my mind. Now I have nothing to look forward to when I turn 18

unless that sketchy liquor store on the corner keeps selling em...

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Well, I am more referring to the public humiliation in airports, being detained at border checkpoints in Texas for a while, public monitoring of the internet. (Jerrylove actually pointed that out a while ago under Bush.)

I seriously am saying both parties are heading towards the death of liberty and freedom.

Indeed..

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by fendeanson

I don't ever remember hearing about those, although if you say so, I'm sure that they existed. All I know is this: GWB never called peaceful old ladies sitting on their lawn chairs w/ signs that had swastikas on them, "radical domestic terrorists."

How the hell can someone who has a sign with a swastika on it be considered 'peaceful?'

That's just dumb.