[relient nelson]

Originally Posted by Gustin

Honestly, if it's under 10ms I don't believe it... I'm guessing if they were having problems their settings were much higher than that.. especially if it's the vocalists having problems (you're much more likely to hear complaints from guitars and drums at lower latencies)... either that or it was a psychological thing

Can you tell that there's a delay between your guitar amp sitting right next to you and when you take 3 - 4 steps away from it? That's what a 5-10ms latency is.

I believe the issue had to do with the fact that voice is conducted through bone and from the outside. The latency was apparently causing a noticeable problem because of the zero-latency bone conduction. Twas just what I read, I'm hoping that it isn't a problem, because that would make this system just one bit easier to implement.

[redbaron]

well, I can tell you that my macbook isn't fast enough to do zero latency monitoring with garageband or logic studio (core duo 2ghz w/ 2gb of ram), I haven't tried it with reaper yet. I don't really have a way to measure the latency but it sounds like a very, very subtle digital delay. It's amazing how tiny a delay makes a huge difference to perception doing vocals.

[akaukal]

Originally Posted by redbaron

well, I can tell you that my macbook isn't fast enough to do zero latency monitoring with garageband or logic studio (core duo 2ghz w/ 2gb of ram), I haven't tried it with reaper yet. I don't really have a way to measure the latency but it sounds like a very, very subtle digital delay. It's amazing how tiny a delay makes a huge difference to perception doing vocals.

Well zero latency is pretty much near impossible. With my Macbook Pro (Core 2 Duo, 2.26 Ghz, 2 gb ram) and my Focusrite Saffire or Presonus FP10, I average about 4-6 ms latency.

[relient nelson]

Originally Posted by akaukal

Well zero latency is pretty much near impossible. With my Macbook Pro (Core 2 Duo, 2.26 Ghz, 2 gb ram) and my Focusrite Saffire or Presonus FP10, I average about 4-6 ms latency.

SAC is supposed to run super fast though. I've heard reports of people getting it down to 1.5-2 ms.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I'd be really interested in the possibilities of using this in a church setting though. Not to mention the big possibility of ridding the band of the big, unreliable mixing console...

Our Allen and Heath GL3800 sure is big, but it's hardly unreliable.

And latency is a huge drawback to using anything involving DSP.
Even less than 10ms is clearly perceptible by the human ear and especially by the performer and can be enough to be an issue.

[gtrdave]

I guess I can see the advantages of a SAC in the case, like in Vegas, where you have a show that is probably run many times with very little variation from one performance to another. There's not a whole lot of "mixing" going on via human input other than to maybe adjust a mic pre gain and/or eq for different singers.
Even then, as we did at Sight and Sound, the different singers' settings are in the dig. console as a different scene. Replace the singer, recall their settings and go.
Again, these were shows where the performance had very little variation from one show to another throughout the show run.
This is different than the typical church set-up.

In a true live situation where, like a weekly church service, where there are probably variables week after week, how much easier and convenient is the SAC when compared to a more 'traditional' console system, I wonder?

[Gustin]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Our Allen and Heath GL3800 sure is big, but it's hardly unreliable.

And latency is a huge drawback to using anything involving DSP.
Even less than 10ms is clearly perceptible by the human ear and especially by the performer and can be enough to be an issue.

Your Allen & Heath may be reliable, but it's a $7000 console.. my church on the other hand is struggling with the decision to fix our Mackie VLZ 32 for 500 dollars or stretch our budget to hit a $1000 newer console.

10ms is very very very low. Most studios run between 4-10ms of latency.... Heck, a Slap-back delay time on a guitar (where it's still just barely an echo) starts at around 40ms.

Have you noticed any latency running a digital console? That's more or less what this system is... a digital console that allows you to customize the parts and install it on your own computer.

I'm not trying to defend it, but if you're trying to talk about it's latency, then I think you're looking into the wrong problem. As long as your system is set up well, and your operating system is tweaked it should run just like a regular digital console.

In a true live situation where, like a weekly church service, where there are probably variables week after week, how much easier and convenient is the SAC when compared to a more 'traditional' console system, I wonder?

It provides some key advantages over a traditional console system... Cost is significantly lower. You can have a 32 channel console with EQ, Dynamics, and Effects on every channel. You can also turn it into an Aviom system alternative with a cheap netbook for your band members. All for less than the cost of implementing a regular aviom system.

You can also do away with your house processing and do it in box (no room eqs, bus compressors or crossovers).

A lot of smaller churches don't have room for a GL3800 and several racks of outboard gear or they set up and tear down a lot, so a compact system, and a system that's quick to set up, is another huge advantage.

All that's more than enough for me to be willing to work in a little less traditional way.

[ibanez_dude]

My issue is in regards to the control surface. I'm a huge advocate of digital consoles, I've spent hundreds of hours mixing on a Yamaha LS9-32, and I love it. However, I want fairly discrete controls for everything. Even if there is only a signal channel strip that requires selecting a channel before making adjustments to its EQ/compression/etc, I'm ok with that. I do however want at least 24 faders needing to switch pages, and I want dedicated knobs for EQ/Dynamics/etc, and so as much as a BFC2000 would work probably work for your setup, it would not be terribly fun to use, IMHO.

Originally Posted by relient nelson

I believe the issue had to do with the fact that voice is conducted through bone and from the outside. The latency was apparently causing a noticeable problem because of the zero-latency bone conduction. Twas just what I read, I'm hoping that it isn't a problem, because that would make this system just one bit easier to implement.

I'm going to agree with you. I haven't had the chance to play with IEM's, but from experience with earplugs, wearing something in your ear really brings out the audio transferred through bone, really loudly. If I wear earplugs to a concert, I can hear myself singing over the PA. Because of this, you would most likely hear the difference in latency at some point much sooner than using wedges, as the audio from the bone and the IEM will arrive at slightly different times, but fairly equivalent volume. This has to produce some kind of phase/timing mismatch that could throw some people off.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by Gustin

All that's more than enough for me to be willing to work in a little less traditional way.

Therein lies the biggest issue for me at my church: my 4 sound people are all non-professional lay people and know very little about sound other than what I've taught them.
It's easier for us to remain "traditional" and have a familiar control surface with a specific knob or button clearly marked for each function than to have a screen, keyboard and mouse for them to have to figure out and navigate when I'm up on the platform playing and singing.

This is why we didn't go with a digital console, too. The learning curve was too much for them to understand. I have 2 slightly used Yamaha Pro Mix 01s off in the corner as evidence of this...they'll be on eBay soon.

The SAC might be the ticket for some and you've pointed out the advantages for you.
For us at this point, it would be a logistical nightmare and of no financial benefit since our rig works well.

[ibanez_dude]

Originally Posted by gtrdave

Therein lies the biggest issue for me at my church: my 4 sound people are all non-professional lay people and know very little about sound other than what I've taught them.
It's easier for us to remain "traditional" and have a familiar control surface with a specific knob or button clearly marked for each function than to have a screen, keyboard and mouse for them to have to figure out and navigate when I'm up on the platform playing and singing.

This is why we didn't go with a digital console, too. The learning curve was too much for them to understand. I have 2 slightly used Yamaha Pro Mix 01s off in the corner as evidence of this...they'll be on eBay soon.

The SAC might be the ticket for some and you've pointed out the advantages for you.
For us at this point, it would be a logistical nightmare and of no financial benefit since our rig works well.

Yeh, that's kinda my issue too. I'm an audio engineer with a lot of experience, so I would love to see us pick up an LS9 or something similar, both to gain the racks of internal eq's/compressors and to be able to recall for the 4 different bands that play, but no one else has any real pro sound experience. Switching away from a traditional analog console could prove quite challenging for them, in a way that might not be practical for us.