I don't want to give up my pedals!!!

Bushman · 07-13-2010, 11:55 AM

Well, in my case, I am just joining this worship team. I had been on my previous church's team for 17 years, and have kind of developed my gear around tube amps and pedals, just my pref.
They already have been using Aviom system and have no amps on stage. They said I can put an amp in an adjacent office and mic it. But it's about 30+ feet away. I use a 21' monster rock cable, which won't reach.
For the record, I think a silent stage is a pipe dream. It's a compromise at best, and is very limiting. But it can solve some sound problem issues...
So I'm trying to have a servants heart, and exploring the possibilities...

HairyScaryMark · 07-13-2010, 12:43 PM

The big concern I have with my church is that there is a couple of people in the worship group and one person in sound team who are pushing this option, whereas I don't think there is wider support for it and I imagine when the decision is taken, there will be absolutely no consultation with those it effects. IEM's will be ordered and first the worship team will know of this is when they turn up one morning and are expected to use them straight away.

My other big concern is the fact that our FOH system is of medicore quality and upgrading it would make a difference to everyone in the church. Changing the monitoring system however only directly effects about 6 people in the church.

We've had building work done on our church for the last few months and been using another building. Typically we would use a digital piano (Roland RD700) and a set of V Drums in our church but as we've temporarily been meeting in another church, we've been using a Grand Piano and a set of acoustic drums. I've heard multiple drummers and piano players rejoice at this but have apparently been told it's not going that way in our new church building.

In the case of my church and probably also with some others. I think there are two big driving factors that lead some people to be so enthusiastic towards IEM systems.

1. perception of volume - this tends to be expected to be a lot quieter in church than in any other live music situation.
2. love of gadgets - many people involved with running sound etc. are really big with gadgets in general and got into sound, partially because they were viewed as being 'technical people', rather than necessarily being audiophiles.

I think IEM systems are the right choice for many situations but I'm yet to be convinced they'd be appreciated in the church I attend. Sounds like a good idea on paper but the reality of actually using them is a bit different.

Bushman · 07-13-2010, 10:57 PM

One thing I've observed about IEM's -vs- standard monitoring / amps...
One thing I love about having a lively stage volume and floor wedge / amps on stage, is that the musicians / singers interact alot. The bassist and drummer play off each other, the guitarists and the drummer / whoever, play off each other. It's the cohesiveness that makes a great group of musicians, great.
The church that has the Avioms is different. They each kind of dwell in their own space. They are tethered to the aviom mixer, they don't interact with each other and seem to be in isolation.
I personally haven't used IEM's yet, but others have witnessed the before and after effects and have come to the same conclusion.
But like I said, servants heart... exploring options. I haven't been there long enough to be rockin their boat. If you know what I mean..

k-lub242 · 07-14-2010, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushman

One thing I've observed about IEM's -vs- standard monitoring / amps...
One thing I love about having a lively stage volume and floor wedge / amps on stage, is that the musicians / singers interact alot. The bassist and drummer play off each other, the guitarists and the drummer / whoever, play off each other. It's the cohesiveness that makes a great group of musicians, great.
The church that has the Avioms is different. They each kind of dwell in their own space. They are tethered to the aviom mixer, they don't interact with each other and seem to be in isolation.
I personally haven't used IEM's yet, but others have witnessed the before and after effects and have come to the same conclusion.
But like I said, servants heart... exploring options. I haven't been there long enough to be rockin their boat. If you know what I mean..

Really? I tend to do the exact opposite, and where I have been the last 3 months (International House of Prayer, Kansas City, International House of Prayer : IHOPâ€“KC Student Awakening) the musicians interact a whole lot. I find it a lot easier with IEM's for a couple reasons. When I play with IEM's and talk-backs, people, primarily the worship leader, can give directions about chord changes and dynamics that everyone can hear. Also, I can focus on a specific instrument to groove with. If I need to talk to someone without everyone hearing it through the talk-back, it's really easy for each of us to pop out a headphone and talk because the stage is dead silent.

Bushman · 07-14-2010, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushman

One thing I've observed about IEM's -vs- standard monitoring / amps...
One thing I love about having a lively stage volume and floor wedge / amps on stage, is that the musicians / singers interact alot. The bassist and drummer play off each other, the guitarists and the drummer / whoever, play off each other. It's the cohesiveness that makes a great group of musicians, great.
The church that has the Avioms is different. They each kind of dwell in their own space. They are tethered to the aviom mixer, they don't interact with each other and seem to be in isolation.
I personally haven't used IEM's yet, but others have witnessed the before and after effects and have come to the same conclusion.
But like I said, servants heart... exploring options. I haven't been there long enough to be rockin their boat. If you know what I mean..

Quote:

Originally Posted by k-lub242

Really? I tend to do the exact opposite, and where I have been the last 3 months (International House of Prayer, Kansas City, International House of Prayer : IHOPâ€“KC Student Awakening) the musicians interact a whole lot. I find it a lot easier with IEM's for a couple reasons. When I play with IEM's and talk-backs, people, primarily the worship leader, can give directions about chord changes and dynamics that everyone can hear. Also, I can focus on a specific instrument to groove with. If I need to talk to someone without everyone hearing it through the talk-back, it's really easy for each of us to pop out a headphone and talk because the stage is dead silent.

That's sounds great! Thanks for shedding a little light on the subject. At IHOP what do the guitarists do with amps / pedals?

HairyScaryMark · 07-15-2010, 08:04 AM

I'm interested to hear how you get on with them.

The difference between your situation and mine would be....

You are one musician joining a group who are already used to using IEM systems.

Nobody at my church has any prior experience of using IEM.

Is there a separate monitor desk? Do you each have your own monitor mix? Do you use small mixers for each musician to allow you to adjust your own mix?

I also think IHOP has quite a different budget for gear and the people using it are amongst the most enthusiastic people around in relation to contemporary church worship and there would be much greater facilities/man power to integrate such a system. It's quite different if you're trying to use this in a church with a congregation of ~200, upgrading from an entry level system, when we already sometimes struggle to get the people to cover all the required tasks on a weekly basis.

Bushman · 07-15-2010, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HairyScaryMark

I'm interested to hear how you get on with them.

The difference between your situation and mine would be....

You are one musician joining a group who are already used to using IEM systems.

Nobody at my church has any prior experience of using IEM.

Is there a separate monitor desk? Do you each have your own monitor mix? Do you use small mixers for each musician to allow you to adjust your own mix?

I also think IHOP has quite a different budget for gear and the people using it are amongst the most enthusiastic people around in relation to contemporary church worship and there would be much greater facilities/man power to integrate such a system. It's quite different if you're trying to use this in a church with a congregation of ~200, upgrading from an entry level system, when we already sometimes struggle to get the people to cover all the required tasks on a weekly basis.

I'm scheduled to play the end of this month. They rotate with about 3 different groups. (Kind of a bummer, I'm used to playing every Sunday.)
Each musician has a little 12 channel mixer with knobs right next to him. Dial in whomever you want, however much you want. They all wear cans, (I think it looks kinda goofy) but they have ear buds available. (I think I'll be using these)
I think they have a 6' or 8' tether between cans and mixer. They have a good overall house mix. So I think the Soundtech has a good ear. But I've heard that a set that includes some crunchy guitar would be very well recieved.

Bushman · 07-24-2010, 04:06 PM

Well, I play in the big auditorium this Sunday.

I'm a little nervous, not bad tho. I practiced with them on thursday. Avioms are going to take some getting used to. Had all the stuff for putting together an iso cab, but pulled the trigger on a Sansamp GT2.

I pulled my RC2 looper off the board and put in the GT2. It's right after my TTC Dirt Box in my chain: Gibson Les Paul Custom > Crybaby Wah > Seymour Duncan Twin Tube Classic > Sansamp GT2 > Barber Tone Press > Ernie Ball 6166 Volume > MXR Carbon Copy Delay > BBE Sonic Stomp > ISP Decimator >
I hooked everything up and ran it to my 788 Portastudio and out to my AKG headphones with a flat EQ to see how it sounded.

Without the GT2 the cleans were ok but very sterile sounding. The OD / Distortions were muddy / flabby / aweful / lifeless sounding. Higher gains were worse.
With the GT2 set at the "Fender Bassman" settings and the gain knob at 10 O' Clock, it sounded very good. More articulate and definitely had an amp quality to the tone. I did notice a slight more compression than normal, so I backed off the Tone Press a little. The GT2 adds a small amount of noise at lower gain settings, and a fair amount at higher settings. My ISP Decimator took care of that. Sounds great! It's not my Twin Reverb or HRDx, but it's pretty good. I am feeling better about it!

Here's a couple of pics so you know it happened...

Oh Ya, the set list for Sunday is:

You are good (Israel Houghton)

Today is the day (Lincoln Brewster)

It's time for the reign of God (Brian Doerksen)

Word of God Speak (Mercy Me)

Beautiful scandalous night (Jar of Clay)

That's why we praise him (Tommy Walker)

It's a rockin set, however they made a last minute key change to "A" for "Today Is The Day" which kind of threw me on my heels since
I've done the song in it's original key for a year or so, but it's all good. Pushes me out of my box a little. I like that.

Gaetano Paul · 07-26-2010, 10:24 PM

Well, how did it go. IEM are not that big a deal once you jump into them, huh.

Bushman · 07-26-2010, 11:22 PM

It went well. My tone sounded pretty good, not "WOW!" but good. I'm happy with that.
My guitar addition to the team was very, very, well recieved. I'm pretty sure they might ask me back.

The IEM's were a struggle at first, getting the mix right is kind of a process, but by the end of the second service I had it dialed in and was getting comfortable with it. I had the fortunate insight to ditch the cans they had and brought my own ear buds, which worked well. I had to turn down the volume so they weren't overloaded, but if I had to pop one out to hear a speaker talk when the sound techs hadn't put them into the Aviom mix, the ear buds worked better than pulling headphones half off.
I think I'll get used to IEM's easily. Getting the attention of another bandmember during service, with IEM's, is another thing tho. I'll keep something handy to throw at them...