[beanbag]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Why would anybody but religious people who believe homosexuality is a sin want to change someone's sexual orientation?

That, by the way, is where homophobia enters the equation.

religious people are not the only people who would rather homosexuals be heterosexuals. while it might be true that one's religious value system would cause them to label it a "sin" specifically, that doesn't mean that non-religious people who don't label it a sin think that it's all peachy. plenty of non-religious people call homosexuality unnatural or wrong and i am sure would support conversion or change. it's not just a religious view--it's also a cultural view.

also, i don't think disapproving of or disagreeing with homosexuality is the same thing as homophobia. yes, they can go hand-in-hand but that doesn't mean they always do.

what happened to matthew shepherd was because of homophobia. disagreeing with someone's sexual orientation does not make one a homophobe.


also, i'll be gone for five days, so it might be a while before i come back in here.

[OiBoyz]

Originally Posted by beanbag

disagreeing with someone's sexual orientation does not make one a homophobe.

[Dwight Schrute]

wherever there is money to be made, there will be the opportunists...

though I do get a kick out of the reaching generalizations:

Christians must behind this because no one else cares about the topic?

Anyone who disagrees with homosexuality is a homophobe?

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

Why would anybody but religious people who believe homosexuality is a sin want to change someone's sexual orientation?

That, by the way, is where homophobia enters the equation.

I have a gay friend who is not a believer, and wishes to change his sexual orientation, (but he sees through the snake oil) he was more furious over greys anatomy's portrayal of sexual orientation (as a choice) than the Roman Catholic Church.

Basically Ryan, are only Christians the force behind cosmetic surgery? Say, breast implants. People just flat out don't like parts of themselves. Cosmetic surgery exists as a lucrative industry for that reason.

But this has nothing to do with homophobia. It has everything to do with attempting to make money. You provide a service that fills a perceived need. Obviously some people have a perceived need to be straight. This business exists to siphon their money and to attempt, be it ever so badly to fill a perceived need.

If that is homophobia, it is only homophobia on the part of the men undergoing the program.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I have a gay friend who is not a believer, and wishes to change his sexual orientation, (but he sees through the snake oil) he was more furious over greys anatomy's portrayal of sexual orientation (as a choice) than the Roman Catholic Church.

really? that's interesting. I'd be interested in why he wants to be straight if there is no religious motivation.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Bryan

really? that's interesting. I'd be interested in why he wants to be straight if there is no religious motivation.

Umm, he doesn't like stereotypical gay things mostly. He has a rather macho sort of job, is a pool playing, beer drinking, guy who just doesn't feel comfortable with Southern California gay culture was the reason he gave me...

There were others, but being as they could be construed offensively and are a subset of the aforementioned I will leave it to that.

And it makes sense to me.

I wish I was about 6 inches taller routinely. I have no religious reason, I am just the shortest of all my friends by about 6 inches. He sort of fits in better with the straight community but isn't straight.

[Than]

So by that reasoning, if I was a woman who just felt I would fit in better with men, would it be okay to be transgendered, etc.?

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Than

So by that reasoning, if I was a woman who just felt I would fit in better with men, would it be okay to be transgendered, etc.?

Not by that reasoning at all.

I am not arguing that someone should do these things. I am saying that a desire to change something is not so strange for a non-religious reason. Hence, cosmetic surgery as a category exists.

It says nothing in regards to the ethics or morality of anything, just that some people have various things they wish they could change, some of which were unchangeable.

I wish I was not allergic to wheat and latex. That doesn't mean Im going to down a loaf of bread and put on latex gloves and it would be okay. (Such would find me in the back of an ambulance)
One can have wishes that one does not act on. One can have wishes that are impossible to act on.

And not all changes that can be made based on a wish should be. Some are unethical. Some would be unethical not to do. (Say, you have a wish to do what is right in a particular scenario.

However:

I believe the Bible teaches that homosexual acts are wrong. I believe it is quite clear. However, I also believe nothing in scripture indicates people may not struggle with a desire their whole life that would be wrong to fulfill.

If this is the case, there are two biblical options. Miraculous transformation, which I would guess really, for most folks would require a direct act of divine intervention, (and I would guess is most often faked,) or choosing to fight the desires of the flesh. The latter tends to be the way Christianity works on most all sinful desires.

[OiBoyz]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

or choosing to fight the desires of the flesh. The latter tends to be the way Christianity works on most all sinful desires.

Fixed that for you.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

Fixed that for you.

I meant what I said. I know enough people who have had evil desires just flat out removed. (Meth, heroin, other immoral activities)

Sometimes God does just remove the desire, but most of the time we have to fight.