[slap_j]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Whats sad is I am kidding of course, but I think I could put together a ballotable proposal for doing just this to stop the terrorists, whoever they happen to be at the moment.

If you do it for the children the coffers will be thrown open for you.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by supersoldier71

The slippery slope is: if you buy a dime bag of weed, and that weed came from one of the Mexican drug cartels (narco-terrorists), have you just "supported" terrorism?

This is the really scary part. Since there's no real oversight of what the executive branch is doing. If you're an enemy combatant, you have no recourse to contest it. If you're declared to be a terrorist suspect, then there's no contesting that, either. It's creating a legal black hole through which you can't return.

[supersoldier71]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Law enforcement officers, judges and politicians are no smarter than the average American. If we have to trust in their smartness, then we're screwed.

Yeah well if we can't find somebody smarter than a po' dumb grunt, we ARE in serious trouble.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Makes me wonder if I would be a good politician. Because I have no desire whatever to be one.

That is why Washington was a great politician- He was reluctant most every step of the way.

This is the really scary part. Since there's no real oversight of what the executive branch is doing. If you're an enemy combatant, you have no recourse to contest it. If you're declared to be a terrorist suspect, then there's no contesting that, either. It's creating a legal black hole through which you can't return.

And with Holder recently testifying that he would like to see Miranda delayed for terrorist reasons- it is really scary. For non citizens- they have no constitutional rights- but human rights. But for guys like this Faisal schlepp- He is a naturalized citizen, and no matter how much of a dirt bag- he has rights a sa citizen.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by nolidad

For non citizens- they have no constitutional rights- but human rights. But for guys like this Faisal schlepp- He is a naturalized citizen, and no matter how much of a dirt bag- he has rights a sa citizen.

The constitution applies to everyone in the United States unless it specifies otherwise (for instance, citizens cannot be deported).

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

And with Holder recently testifying that he would like to see Miranda delayed for terrorist reasons- it is really scary.

I'm sick of hearing "Miranda". Maranda isn't a set of rights: it's a court case that says that the result of people who fail to excercise rights they don't know they have is inadmissable in court. You can question someone: but you cannot use what they say against them in court if they did not undetstand that they had the constitutional right to not answer.

All that said: It's simply wrong to thing that law enforcement is less effective at getting information. Modern history shows us the exact opposite (our terrorists held by LEOs have been very cooperative)... and it's insane to say that a serial-killer with 20 victims dying in a vault has protections that a terrorist wannabe that might know where a bomb is doesn't because "we need to protect ourselves".

For non citizens- they have no constitutional rights- but human rights. But for guys like this Faisal schlepp- He is a naturalized citizen, and no matter how much of a dirt bag- he has rights a sa citizen.

So I can imprison and kill tourists without due process? They don't have rights afterall.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by nolidad

For non citizens- they have no constitutional rights- but human rights. But for guys like this Faisal schlepp- He is a naturalized citizen, and no matter how much of a dirt bag- he has rights a sa citizen.

sorry, unless the constitution says otherwise (like the right to vote) everybody has the same rights i do (e.g. free speech, jury trial, due process, etc)

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by slap_j

The constitution applies to everyone in the United States unless it specifies otherwise (for instance, citizens cannot be deported).

Letr me rephrase- non citizens who are here under legal means (immigrants, work visas, invited guests etc.) do have contstituional protection- illegals or members of warring nations of the US do not have constitutional protections, though they certainly may be afforded them.

What are called "human rights" often overlap with constitutional rights of citizens, but they do not enjoy th eprivilegs of protection in the same way as citizens do. Their rights were not delineated bythe constitution but other laws taken up by the govt.

One example- an illegal caught committing a crime (say aggrevaterd assault) upon discovery of his illegal status is deported- If he has a family they are deported as well (if illegals) and their property is taken by the govt. If a family of citizens is arrested and jailed- their properrties are not automatically forfeit.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Letr me rephrase- non citizens who are here under legal means (immigrants, work visas, invited guests etc.) do have contstituional protection- illegals or members of warring nations of the US do not have constitutional protections, though they certainly may be afforded them.

(with the possible exception of a 'warring nation') you are wrong. if you are present within US borders you have constitutional rights unless you are convicted of a crime, only then, after due process of the law, can your rights be suspended.

One example- an illegal caught committing a crime (say aggrevaterd assault) upon discovery of his illegal status is deported- If he has a family they are deported as well (if illegals) and their property is taken by the govt. If a family of citizens is arrested and jailed- their properrties are not automatically forfeit.

but this is after a due process of the law and until that due process is completed he has virtually all the rights you do, right to attorney, right to speech, right to privacy, etc.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Bryan

(with the possible exception of a 'warring nation') you are wrong. if you are present within US borders you have constitutional rights unless you are convicted of a crime, only then, after due process of the law, can your rights be suspended.
but this is after a due process of the law and until that due process is completed he has virtually all the rights you do, right to attorney, right to speech, right to privacy, etc.

I agree all have due process- but if one is found to be hear illegally- then he loses those rights- he can be deported without a hearing, without an attorney, etc. etc. It is assumed all people are here properly- but if you are an illegal alien- you do not have a right to a trial to appeal your deportation. Once it has been discovered you are not here by citizenry or permission- you lose those rights.

If the government decides to pusrue a criminal trial for an illegal who has committed a crime- they will recieve the right to a fair trial and attorney, but that is only if the govt. chooses to pursue activity other than deporting- because then they are here by need and protected.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I agree all have due process- but if one is found to be hear illegally- then he loses those rights- he can be deported without a hearing, without an attorney, etc. etc. It is assumed all people are here properly- but if you are an illegal alien- you do not have a right to a trial to appeal your deportation. Once it has been discovered you are not here by citizenry or permission- you lose those rights.

and how is that determination made?

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Bryan

and how is that determination made?

Not being a law enforcement officer or ICE I am not certain how they detremine legal status other than the cursory things like green cards, soc. numbers, and other IDS checks.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Not being a law enforcement officer or ICE I am not certain how they detremine legal status other than the cursory things like green cards, soc. numbers, and other IDS checks.

But you keep telling us about all you know from working in the prison system. You've even said you can extrapolate it with accuracy to non-criminals. But you don't understand the basics of the justice system?

The correct answer would have been "there's a hearing". That would be "due process".

Can we execute illegals (for being illegal)? After all, they don't have constitutional protections according to you.

Of course we cannot... because the constitution doesn't say "citizens" or "legals" or anything of the kind. It just says "the people".

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Not being a law enforcement officer or ICE I am not certain how they detremine legal status other than the cursory things like green cards, soc. numbers, and other IDS checks.

Google is wonderful:

The Immigration Court Practice Manual

In short, there is a hearing before a judge. Decisions can be appealed. They have the right to representation.

There is due process here. Immigration officers can't just throw them in the back of the car, drive across the border, and throw them out.