[nolidad]

Originally Posted by metropolis4

I'd be very curious to see your proof that illegal immigrants don't contribute anything to the economy. I've already shown you studies that show they contribute far more than what they use, but you've yet to show anything to back up your allegations that they contribute nothing. Please share

Well I never said they do not contribute ANYTHING to an economy- they do buy goods and rent apts. and such.

BUT and this is the big but- because the are illegal- they work for less- thus depressing wages in an area for that work that teh illegals are doing in large numbers.

Also because they are part of the underground economy for the most part- they do not pay taxes. The gov. of Arizona showed that illegals in her state are a net drain fo 1.6billion on state services.

So you are asserting that they replaced legally signifigant wording with legally insignifigant wording? You are also asserting motivation other than that stated by the participants.

Not in the least

This last would be "lawful contact".

Not according to the gov. of AZ and the AG of Az. I will take their word for it in their state.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Not according to the gov. of AZ and the AG of Az. I will take their word for it in their state.

cite.

[JerryLove]

Interesting note: Glenn Beck has come out criticizing people who criticize demanding papers as Nazi-esque.

This is interesting because Beck has called all of the following Nazi-ish: ACORN, TARP, Universal Healthcare, UNICEF, the UN, and the Peace Corps.

For the tarp he even paraphrased "first they came for the banks, then they came for the car companies". To quote Louis Black here: "they came to give 800 billion dollars. If that's what they are doing, they can come for me next... heck: I'll come to them".

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well I never said they do not contribute ANYTHING to an economy- they do buy goods and rent apts. and such.

BUT and this is the big but- because the are illegal- they work for less- thus depressing wages in an area for that work that teh illegals are doing in large numbers.

Also because they are part of the underground economy for the most part- they do not pay taxes. The gov. of Arizona showed that illegals in her state are a net drain fo 1.6billion on state services.

I challenge you to prove that point. The documentation I've provided shows that while they do use $1.4 billion per year in resources they are contributing $2.4 billion to the economy. That's a net gain of almost $1 billion. Can you show me proof that that is in fact a net drain of $1.6 billion?

In order to prove that point you need to show some proof of what they are actually contributing; something that shows that their contributions equal $1.6 billion less than what they use. I think you've got your wording mixed up here...

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Interesting note: Glenn Beck has come out criticizing people who criticize demanding papers as Nazi-esque.

This is interesting because Beck has called all of the following Nazi-ish: ACORN, TARP, Universal Healthcare, UNICEF, the UN, and the Peace Corps.

For the tarp he even paraphrased "first they came for the banks, then they came for the car companies". To quote Louis Black here: "they came to give 800 billion dollars. If that's what they are doing, they can come for me next... heck: I'll come to them".

cite

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by metropolis4

I challenge you to prove that point. The documentation I've provided shows that while they do use $1.4 billion per year in resources they are contributing $2.4 billion to the economy. That's a net gain of almost $1 billion. Can you show me proof that that is in fact a net drain of $1.6 billion?

In order to prove that point you need to show some proof of what they are actually contributing; something that shows that their contributions equal $1.6 billion less than what they use. I think you've got your wording mixed up here...

Well then I guess the gov. of Az is just lying as well as the State reps and senate as well as teh financial officers of Az.. I cited them several times on this thread already saying they are draining state resources. You will have to take it up with them.

You rlittle study- di they go to every immigrant? Did they use state numbers based on employers? Did they guess on the number of illegals? Did they survey employers? Most illegals do not show up on convential stats for economics- because their earings are not recorded in th enormal ways. They do not show up as tax payers, nor do they even often show up as employees- . Thatr report is just guessing how many illegals are part of the mix, how much they actually make and how much of that contributesd to the economy.

"Remeber we are talking aboutr the illegal immigrants here. You know the ones that are invisible as far as paperwork goes for the most part.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well then I guess the gov. of Az is just lying as well as the State reps and senate as well as teh financial officers of Az.. I cited them several times on this thread already saying they are draining state resources. You will have to take it up with them.

I never said the Arizona governor, senators, reps and financial officers were lying; I never even said I disagree with them. What you've said is what they've quoted as what illegal immigrants are using. I agree with those numbers, in fact the posts I've made confirm those same numbers you've stated. However, they have not said anything about the contributions being made by these people that negate those costs. Can you show me what they've said about the benefits of these immigrants?

Originally Posted by nolidad

You rlittle study- di they go to every immigrant? Did they use state numbers based on employers? Did they guess on the number of illegals? Did they survey employers? Most illegals do not show up on convential stats for economics- because their earings are not recorded in th enormal ways. They do not show up as tax payers, nor do they even often show up as employees- . Thatr report is just guessing how many illegals are part of the mix, how much they actually make and how much of that contributesd to the economy

I don't think I have an obligation to defend this study here as it wasn't my own work. If you want that information you can read it clearly stated in the report. It was a legitimite study done by a reputable source.

Originally Posted by nolidad

"Remeber we are talking aboutr the illegal immigrants here. You know the ones that are invisible as far as paperwork goes for the most part

Think about this logically for a minute. If they are invisible then how do we know what they are costing the state? Since numbers have been posted showing what they are costing it only stands to reason that we can also find out what they are contributing right? So what are those numbers?


In fact, you already disproved your own statement in your last response to me. You said that they are using $1.6 billion in resources, but then you said this:

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well I never said they do not contribute ANYTHING to an economy- they do buy goods and rent apts. and such

So if they are using $1.6 billion, but you admit they are contributing something, then it is not possible for them to be causing a net drainof $1.6 billion as you clearly stated.


You still haven't shown me anything to disprove the fact that they are contributing far more than what they use. Can you actually show me real numbers that prove they are contributing less than what they use?

[nolidad]

I never said the Arizona governor, senators, reps and financial officers were lying; I never even said I disagree with them. What you've said is what they've quoted as what illegal immigrants are using. I agree with those numbers, in fact the posts I've made confirm those same numbers you've stated. However, they have not said anything about the contributions being made by these people that negate those costs. Can you show me what they've said about the benefits of these immigrants?

Well we have discussed teh fact that they buy gods and services- but they cost the STATE money that is not recouped in state services not the private sector.

And I think this path is going down a raqbbit trail- even if they were contributing 20 times more than they cost- they are here illegally! Either we enforce the laws or rid the laws and open the borders.

Teh gov. said they cost the state $1.6 billion in money that could go to pay for state provided services to legal citizens. So I take her word fo it. Most illegals also send alot of their money back home ot their families just like many legals do.

I don't think I have an obligation to defend this study here as it wasn't my own work. If you want that information you can read it clearly stated in the report. It was a legitimite study done by a reputable source.

And in that study- they did not even seek to delineate legal vs. illegal immigrants--legals contribute much for they are full taxpaying citizens- illegals for the most part are not so when they get health care- the state pays , when their kids go to schools the state pays - a net drain on a states budget.

Think about this logically for a minute. If they are invisible then how do we know what they are costing the state? Since numbers have been posted showing what they are costing it only stands to reason that we can also find out what they are contributing right? So what are those numbers?

Cuz when they go to school- or the hospitsal th estate pays. Th einvisible economy does not mean they are not known to exist. They just do ot pay most taxes.



DO YOU UNDERSTAND i AM TALKING ABOUT THE STATE BUDGET- AND NOT THE ECONOMY IN GENERAL????

[nolidad]

AG Holder admits to congress that he hasn't read the Az. anti illegal immigration bill but only scanned it. And yet He has come out in such strong opposition to teh bill. Maybe he should read it first and find out all his fears are just empty rhetoric and not part of the bill.

FOXNews.com - Holder Admits to Not Reading Arizona's Immigration Law Despite Criticizing It

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Originally Posted by nolidad
Not according to the gov. of AZ and the AG of Az. I will take their word for it in their state.

Originally Posted by JerryLove

cite?

You never responded to this. Why not?

Interesting note: Glenn Beck has come out criticizing people who criticize demanding papers as Nazi-esque.

This is interesting because Beck has called all of the following Nazi-ish: ACORN, TARP, Universal Healthcare, UNICEF, the UN, and the Peace Corps.

For the tarp he even paraphrased "first they came for the banks, then they came for the car companies". To quote Louis Black here: "they came to give 800 billion dollars. If that's what they are doing, they can come for me next... heck: I'll come to them".

Originally Posted by nolidad

cite

Full Episode | May 12, 2010 - Michael Patrick King | The Daily Show Segment 2, starting at 9:30

To be specific he compares the following to nazism: Global warming, Empathy, National Endowment for the Arts, Teaching climate change, ACORN, TARP, and the Peace Core.

So where's my cite Noli? You like to make a lot of assertions: Did you get them from somewhere or are you just lying?

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well we have discussed teh fact that they buy gods and services- but they cost the STATE money that is not recouped in state services not the private sector.

And I think this path is going down a raqbbit trail- even if they were contributing 20 times more than they cost- they are here illegally! Either we enforce the laws or rid the laws and open the borders.

Teh gov. said they cost the state $1.6 billion in money that could go to pay for state provided services to legal citizens. So I take her word fo it. Most illegals also send alot of their money back home ot their families just like many legals do.



And in that study- they did not even seek to delineate legal vs. illegal immigrants--legals contribute much for they are full taxpaying citizens- illegals for the most part are not so when they get health care- the state pays , when their kids go to schools the state pays - a net drain on a states budget.


Cuz when they go to school- or the hospitsal th estate pays. Th einvisible economy does not mean they are not known to exist. They just do ot pay most taxes.



DO YOU UNDERSTAND i AM TALKING ABOUT THE STATE BUDGET- AND NOT THE ECONOMY IN GENERAL????

You were the one who initially brought up the issue of costs to the economy, I showed you clearly that they are contributing more than what they use, you disputed my point, but you have yet to show me any proof to contradict my position.

Should I take this long post as a 'no, you can't find any statistics or real numbers to back your position?'
I've asked several times and you can't seem to come up with anything...

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

So where's my cite Noli? You like to make a lot of assertions: Did you get them from somewhere or are you just lying?

When you prove Vanderboegh is an ardent tea partier and prove I hate all entitlements as you asserted in other threads and have refused to provide a scintilla of evidence I will gladly post.

But to let you know_ posted them saying so on theis thread once maybe even twice already- so go back and do some actual checking of the citesd I post and you will find your answer.

[QUOTE]
Full Episode | May 12, 2010 - Michael Patrick King | The Daily Show Segment 2, starting at 9:30

To be specific he compares the following to nazism: Global warming, Empathy, National Endowment for the Arts, Teaching climate change, ACORN, TARP, and the Peace Core.[/QUO


You are kidding right?? This is low even for you Jerry. Snippets from a comedy show to poke fun at Beck? Well of course someone of your mindset would believe teh 10 second snippets without checking ot see the full context of what was being said- What bothers me most is that I still find a little shock that ou would propose this as serious evidence.

But tehn again this follows your rep as one who will pettifog a thread and slqander one you disagree with with any sliver of information you can twist out of its context.

From Metropolis:

Should I take this long post as a 'no, you can't find any statistics or real numbers to back your position?'
I've asked several times and you can't seem to come up with anything...

From the economy in general- even a kid making an allowance and spends it has a net + for an economy- but we are talking the state budgets- the public budget- not teh private sector. I will gladly concede that anyone who spends money in our economy has a net positive to the economy - but to the state or govt. budget they are a net negative and in AZ. according ot the politicos it is $1.6 billion.

[nolidad]

Holder: AZ Immigration Law Not Racist - Political Punch

Well talk about spending alot of time talking to say nothing. Its not racist- but it could be racist- we have to understand teh problems of immigration- but it is a national not a state problem (though Arizona is heavily weighed down by the fedsa inactivity). We need to understand the communities involved (how about understanding the problems of the legal citizens involved- like the rampant crime being committed by illegals.)

New FBI Statistics on Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens
CaPoliticalNews ^ | November 12, 2006 | FBI/INS

Posted on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 12:18:09 PM by Zakeet

INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants

2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants

CRIME STATISTICS 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually

53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or “transport coyotes".

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.

BIRTH STATISTICS 380,000 plus “anchor babies” were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents, making 380,000 babies automatically U.S.citizens.

97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.

66% plus of all births in California are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers

When the fed will not protect the national borders - tehn a sovereign state has its own right to protect its states borders- even if that border is shared with teh national border and another country.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

When you prove Vanderboegh is an ardent tea partier and prove I hate all entitlements as you asserted in other threads and have refused to provide a scintilla of evidence I will gladly post.

Then you are lying or going out of your way to appear to be lying; since you've resorted to this rather than cut-n-paste or providing a post number.

You are kidding right?? This is low even for you Jerry. Snippets from a comedy show to poke fun at Beck? Well of course someone of your mindset would believe teh 10 second snippets without checking ot see the full context of what was being said- What bothers me most is that I still find a little shock that ou would propose this as serious evidence.

Actually, they are snippits from Beck's show: snippets which prove the claim. I'll support it (assuming you can create an actual argument against the support already provided), since I brought it up: or we can drop it as off topic. Up to you.

New FBI Statistics on Crimes Committed by Illegal Aliens

Already you've made an error, in that these are not FBI statistics. Here's the breakdown on this "report"

snopes.com: Just One State - Cost of Illegals in Los Angeles

In all your responses (including the pure insults I did not quote), you seem to be going for an emotional reaction rather than arguing a case. Where you do seem to attempt to be arguing a case (your second post) you are arguing "illegals are bad", which for me is not related to my dispute with this law; though it does appear to be legitemately part of an off-topic discussion you are having with another poster. Sadly, you are mis-citing your support.