[nolidad]

Yes, I saw several on TV at the first convention complaining that they had no representation. Apparently white, college-educated . Christian republicans no longer are allowed to vote. It's news to me.

Well your definition of representation to white christian folks would seem to be the same one King George held to the colonists. SO.........................................

Someone did eat their brains.

So much for tolerance from the left!

White, Christian, and wrong.

Well yoi should tell teh blacks, gays, atheists, and other non white Christian folk that are tea partiers that they are in the wrong group.

Colleges they accuse of brainwashing, even though they all appear to be immune to those evil liberals.

Or grew up and started thinking rationally finally!!!

"Fair share" being defined however it makes it true for the person saying it.

Well I agree 5% paying over 85% of the taxes unfair, but heck they can afford it better than the 47% who pay nothing.

Your statement is, at absoulte best misleading and more likely an outright lie.

Well your links only went to 2007 - it is now 2009. I heard that on Fox ,NBC, and CNN as a report issued by the AP (I think) so you can take it up with them. I had no reason to believe the news casts were lyhing when I heard the same stats on 3 different networks.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well your definition of representation to white christian folks would seem to be the same one King George held to the colonists. SO.........................................

Of course you don't have a quote establishing that King George felt that the colonists cast democratic votes to elect the representatives who would run their government.

The colonists themselves felt our system gave them representation: that's why they implamented it.

Your statement is so illogical that it seems almost random. It certainly bears no resembelance to reality.

So much for tolerance from the left!

Left-wing zomies are indeed rather brian intolerant. So are right wing zombies. Most zombies, however, I think are in the braaains party.

Well yoi should tell teh blacks, gays, atheists, and other non white Christian folk that are tea partiers that they are in the wrong group.

I suspect I could tell all of them on a long weekend.

Or grew up and started thinking rationally finally!!!

They were not grown up in college, which many of them are still in?!?

Or are you saying that the church and parents are leftist brainwashers?

Well I agree 5% paying over 85% of the taxes unfair, but heck they can afford it better than the 47% who pay nothing.

I'm going to stop responding here and let me tell you why

I just esablished that your claim of 5% / 85% is a complete fabrication. I supported it. You repeated it. That established (again) you are a liar. The Bible be believed, you are a damn liar.

[nolidad]

I'm going to stop responding here and let me tell you why

I just esablished that your claim of 5% / 85% is a complete fabrication. I supported it. You repeated it. That established (again) you are a liar. The Bible be believed, you are a damn liar.

Well if I was talking about 2007 or earlier I would be lying- but I was reffering to the news reports from 2009 so sorry but I at least gave you an opportunity to lose your cool again

Well I can't find the qoute online for the top 5%-- it may be the top 25% and I made a mistake (though you would never believe that but that is okay), if I can find the qoute and I am wrong about 2009 I will gladly retract.

But here is a site showing the 47% and how the burden of income taxes kept rising

Americans Love To Scream About Taxes Or Social Support, But Only Half Are Actually Paying Income Tax

[nolidad]

I suspect I could tell all of them on a long weekend.

Well maybe, maybe not, but it sure trashes the white, Christian and wrong answer to bits.

Of course you don't have a quote establishing that King George felt that the colonists cast democratic votes to elect the representatives who would run their government.

Its found right after your slander that vanderboegh is an ardent tea partier.

They were not grown up in college, which many of them are still in?!?

Or are you saying that the church and parents are leftist brainwashers?

Tehy sure are !!! and you should see the crud that comes out inthe rinse cycle!!!!

The colonists themselves felt our system gave them representation: that's why they implamented it.

HMMMM??? I wonder why "taxation without representation" was such a popul;ar cry of the revolution??? Maybe that's just right wing propaganda.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well I can't find the qoute online for the top 5%-- it may be the top 25% and I made a mistake (though you would never believe that but that is okay), if I can find the qoute and I am wrong about 2009 I will gladly retract.

You can't quote it because it's a fabriction. The 47% number you keep mentioning is from the Tax Policy Institute. Here's today's interview with NPR citing that the top 20% pay 70% of the 2009 income taxes. (Who Pays Taxes? Not As Many As You Think : NPR)

So let's talk about some of the real numbers. The richest Americans (those making over $1,000,000) pay about 27% of their earnings to the government. The average person pays just over 18%. It is a progressive system, but there's hardly the dicotomy your number falsely implies (the rich pay $0.09 more on the dollar than the average man).

Now everyone who made income in the US paid taxes (minus people illegally avoiding paying taxes). All of them. Close enough to 100% as makes no difference.

Looking *only* at Federal income taxes, people paying no tax is unavoidable relative to other things which have already been discussed. Bush gives a $800 tax credit? Then anyone who would have paid <$801 pays nothing. Medical bills are exempted? Than anyone who spent their yearly income on medical bills pays nothing. Losses can be written off? Then anyone whose net worth decreased (such as someone with a lot of stock relative to their yearly income) paid nothing. It was a bad year for stocks.

So there's a number of people who made no money, and another group of people who netted no money. I suppose not taxing people who made no money makes sense.

But as discussed in another thread: we also don't tax below a certain income... and that's adjusted income (see previous paragraph). So it looks like 47%, once adjusted, made below the minimum threshold.

We actually don't pay that much in taxes at all. Of the 36 richest countries, only 4 had lower tax burdens than the US. So that's another myth you are propigating.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only one of your numbers is even accurate: and it's very misleading.

[nolidad]

I just esablished that your claim of 5% / 85% is a complete fabrication. I supported it. You repeated it. That established (again) you are a liar. The Bible be believed, you are a damn liar

Well other than showing the animosity in your soul- I will eat my crow right now.

I am wrong! After looking at archives of fox news I discovered that they said the top 25% paid 85%. I was half listening to the news and working on the computer. I assume I missed the 20 and only heard the 5%.

Its too bad you do not have much tolerance for people of lesser minds. But I wasn't lying- I just half heard and went with that. I apologize to all- qand yes even you Jerry.

But the entire point was and still is the wealthy do pair their fair share of taxes.

So let's talk about some of the real numbers. The richest Americans (those making over $1,000,000) pay about 27% of their earnings to the government. The average person pays just over 18%. It is a progressive system, but there's hardly the dicotomy your number falsely implies (the rich pay $0.09 more on the dollar than the average man).

But remember that this "average" is badly skewed because first of all it only encompasses 53% of the wage earners- and teh 26-53% only pay 15 % of the total income taxes. They pay far lower than 18%- but teh average bumps higher because the wealthier pay far more and thus raise that average number.

Now everyone who made income in the US paid taxes (minus people illegally avoiding paying taxes). All of them. Close enough to 100% as makes no difference

.

Of course but we are speaking federal payroll income taxers specifically.

We actually don't pay that much in taxes at all. Of the 36 richest countries, only 4 had lower tax burdens than the US. So that's another myth you are propigating.

We pay more in dollars in taxes- but less as a pct. of our income. I have never said otherwise. I don't want to get to a European tax burden.

So there's a number of people who made no money, and another group of people who netted no money. I suppose not taxing people who made no money makes sense.

But as discussed in another thread: we also don't tax below a certain income... and that's adjusted income (see previous paragraph). So it looks like 47%, once adjusted, made below the minimum threshold.

People who made no money are not part of this equation- people who were able to reduce their taxable income to 0 are.

Let me be clear so that you don't don't falsely asccuse me of other myths.
Sopme people should not have to carry a tax burden- they should be exempted because of theiur poverty from paying their share of taxes.

The whole point is that we hear so much about injustice and how the rich are not paying their fair share. All the numbers show this to be lying rhetoric. If nearly half the population pays no taxes- and the wealthiest 25% pay over 85% of the taxes- I don't think the wealthy are not paying their "fair share".

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only one of your numbers is even accurate: and it's very misleading.

No it was just a number to show who did and who did not pay taxes- it was not seeking the whys it was just showing the distribution of taxes paid. It is not misleading- 47% of those who earned wages in America for 2009 paid no federal income tax! the other 53% paid 100% of all federal income taxes--that is very straightforward.

[nolidad]

I just esablished that your claim of 5% / 85% is a complete fabrication. I supported it. You repeated it. That established (again) you are a liar. The Bible be believed, you are a damn liar

Well other than showing the animosity in your soul- I will eat my crow right now.

I am wrong! After looking at archives of fox news I discovered that they said the top 25% paid 85%. I was half listening to the news and working on the computer. I missed the 20 and only heard the 5%. Its not the first time I have messed up and it wont be the last!

Its too bad you do not have much tolerance for people of lesser minds. But I wasn't lying- I just half heard and went with that. I apologize to all- and yes even you Jerry.

But the entire point was and still is the wealthy do pair their fair share of taxes.

So let's talk about some of the real numbers. The richest Americans (those making over $1,000,000) pay about 27% of their earnings to the government. The average person pays just over 18%. It is a progressive system, but there's hardly the dicotomy your number falsely implies (the rich pay $0.09 more on the dollar than the average man).

But remember that this "average" is badly skewed because first of all it only encompasses 53% of the wage earners- and teh 26-53% only pay 15 % of the total income taxes. They pay far lower than 18%- but teh average bumps higher because the wealthier pay far more and thus raise that average number.

Now everyone who made income in the US paid taxes (minus people illegally avoiding paying taxes). All of them. Close enough to 100% as makes no difference

.

Of course but we are speaking federal payroll income taxers specifically.

We actually don't pay that much in taxes at all. Of the 36 richest countries, only 4 had lower tax burdens than the US. So that's another myth you are propigating.

We pay more in dollars in taxes- but less as a pct. of our income. I have never said otherwise. I don't want to get to a European tax burden.

So there's a number of people who made no money, and another group of people who netted no money. I suppose not taxing people who made no money makes sense.

But as discussed in another thread: we also don't tax below a certain income... and that's adjusted income (see previous paragraph). So it looks like 47%, once adjusted, made below the minimum threshold.

People who made no money are not part of this equation- people who were able to reduce their taxable income to 0 are.

Let me be clear so that you don't don't falsely asccuse me of other myths.
Sopme people should not have to carry a tax burden- they should be exempted because of theiur poverty from paying their share of taxes.

The whole point is that we hear so much about injustice and how the rich are not paying their fair share. All the numbers show this to be lying rhetoric. If nearly half the population pays no taxes- and the wealthiest 25% pay over 85% of the taxes- I don't think the wealthy are not paying their "fair share".

Not to put too fine a point on it, but only one of your numbers is even accurate: and it's very misleading.

No it was just a number to show who did and who did not pay taxes- it was not seeking the whys it was just showing the distribution of taxes paid. It is not misleading- 47% of those who earned wages in America for 2009 paid no federal income tax! the other 53% paid 100% of all federal income taxes--that is very straightforward.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Its too bad you do not have much tolerance for people of lesser minds. But I wasn't lying- I just half heard and went with that. I apologize to all- and yes even you Jerry.

The first time might have been a mistake. After I corrected you however...

Of course but we are speaking federal payroll income taxers specifically.

Actually payroll taxes and income taxes are not the same thing. Everyone who gets paid pays payroll taxes. Also, their employer usually pays more payroll taxes for them.

Let me be clear so that you don't don't falsely asccuse me of other myths.
Sopme people should not have to carry a tax burden- they should be exempted because of theiur poverty from paying their share of taxes.

I disagree. They should have to pay their share. Their share is $0.

The whole point is that we hear so much about injustice and how the rich are not paying their fair share. All the numbers show this to be lying rhetoric. If nearly half the population pays no taxes- and the wealthiest 25% pay over 85% of the taxes- I don't think the wealthy are not paying their "fair share".

I don't think I said that. I don't think it was said on this thread.

The rich pay more, both in absolute and relative-to-income terms than the poor.

Though if we are going to talk about equity as we complain about 47%: the rich get the exact same deductions. Getting to take $20k off your income means more when you make $18k than when you make $1m.

I agree with progressive taxation. I think it's the only thing that really works. That's probibly why everyone does it. I agree that the tax code should be simplified. I assert there is inequity to address; though I doubt where I think that is and where you think I think that is are in alignment.

So for 47% of Americans: tax freedom day (speaking of income tax) was Jan1. For the "average" American it was March. For the richest 5%, it was this month.

[nolidad]

The first time might have been a mistake. After I corrected you however...

Well Jerry you thinking anything positive of me could put me in cardiac arrest, so whatever.

Actually payroll taxes and income taxes are not the same thing. Everyone who gets paid pays payroll taxes. Also, their employer usually pays more payroll taxes for them.

Well I am speaking in teh way us blue collar folk understand- federal income taxes are only paid by the employee- the employer pays his own. And it is the income tax not SSI.

I agree with progressive taxation. I think it's the only thing that really works. That's probibly why everyone does it. I agree that the tax code should be simplified. I assert there is inequity to address; though I doubt where I think that is and where you think I think that is are in alignment.

Not everyone has a progressive income tax.

Europe Circles The Flat Tax

As for you rlast line HUH????? I do ot try to think for others - I have a hard enough time thinking for myself.

I disagree. They should have to pay their share. Their share is $0.

Well you cannot pay $0 so tehy do not pay.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well I am speaking in teh way us blue collar folk understand- federal income taxes are only paid by the employee- the employer pays his own. And it is the income tax not SSI.

You seem to think "blue collar folk" are incredibly ignorant. I choose to give them more credit than that.

Not everyone has a progressive income tax.

Estonia? Slovakia?

And even your article doubts it will work:
"In the former Soviet bloc, most of the countries that enacted flat taxes gained revenue as people who had worked in the shadow economy began reporting their income and paying taxes."
[...]
"Compared to citizens of the countries behind the old Iron Curtain, relatively few Western Europeans work in the shadow economy."

But point taken: there are some countries running a flat tax.

I don't believe it serves the public good to take 18% of the pay of someone who makes $10k per year to support her three kids: but perhaps others do.

[nolidad]

Estonia? Slovakia?

And even your article doubts it will work:
"In the former Soviet bloc, most of the countries that enacted flat taxes gained revenue as people who had worked in the shadow economy began reporting their income and paying taxes."
[...]
"Compared to citizens of the countries behind the old Iron Curtain, relatively few Western Europeans work in the shadow economy."

But point taken: there are some countries running a flat tax.

I don't believe it serves the public good to take 18% of the pay of someone who makes $10k per year to support her three kids: but perhaps others do.

Well debating teh right or wrong of it is another matter, but the point being is countries are experimenting with flat tax

I am sure that Estonians and Slovakians would take umbrage with your putting their nations in ?