[slap_j]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Jail is not designed to "reform" anyone.

Why are you using quotes there? You're the one who brought up reforming criminals.

Our recidividism rate is high because m ost of the penal system is now so cushy that guys don't feel punished.

Of the prisoners and ex-prisoners I've talked to (including ones in my family) "cushy" never came up. The words I heard were more along the lines of tedious, angry, miserable, etc. Maybe I'd find your characterization somewhat credible if you had served 10 years instead of just being a visitor. Besides your theory flies in the face of a well established fact—harsher jail conditions are associated with more post release crime. Jail hardens people.

Jail was intnended to have one pay for their crimes. China has on eof th elowest recidivism rates.

The PRC penal system's stated goal is reform. Not recompense. So, poor example? Besides I don't see how this is an analogue. Chinese and Americans aren't generic human-like units that can be swapped interchangeably. Maybe you ought to consider other variables aside from conditions inside the jails? Maybe some disparity among socio-economic classes? This is why, as China grows economically, so does it's crime rate (up by 2 million crimes annually between 1990 and 2000—nearly 5 million in 2007).

[jthomas1600]

I have served time. Jails are too cushy. There is no question about that. The only real punishment to being in jail is what you can loose...like a job, a car you're making payments on, a house etc. Since the majority of offenders don't have a great job, a nice car, a house...it is not a big deal to serve a few years. I know serving 10 as slap pointed out is a different thing, but most first time offenders serve far less than that. Less than a year even.

My opinion (from experience being locked up and from taking criminology classes at college later in life) is that it is the social aspect inside the jails that is the problem. If you had to serve your time in a mostly isolated manner 6 months would be a harsher sentence than two years of working out, playing cards and watching TV with your new friends. Not only does the social life make it much easier to do time, but it allows you to learn more about being a better criminal (swapping recipes for making meth, getting instructions on hot wiring cars etc.) and allows you to make new connections for when you get out.

Shorter harsher sentences would also be much, much less costly to tax payers.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by jthomas1600

I have served time. Jails are too cushy. There is no question about that.

It's a matter of proportionality. There are probably better ways to do it but I'm not very creative when it comes to punishing people (and it's not something I aspire to). I might be in favor of something not so "cushy" if they stopped locking up so many people for minor things like small amounts of drugs and other non-violent and/or victimless crimes.

The only real punishment to being in jail is what you can loose...like a job, a car you're making payments on, a house etc. Since the majority of offenders don't have a great job, a nice car, a house...it is not a big deal to serve a few years.

In this area there are lots of women who are locked up for trafficking oxycodone from Florida. These are decade long sentences. Their children visit them in jail. That is something big to lose. And this goes back to that socio-economic status thing I mentioned earlier. Why are so many poor people in jail? In a nation that is 75% white, why are 65% of all inmates non-white? Something worth pondering for everyone.

[jthomas1600]

Originally Posted by slap_j

And this goes back to that socio-economic status thing I mentioned earlier. Why are so many poor people in jail? In a nation that is 75% white, why are 65% of all inmates non-white? Something worth pondering for everyone.

This is an interesting point and I think there are several answers. First of all I think race may be a factor, but a small one when compared to economics. I suspect if you did a survey of households with an annual income of less than $20,000 you would find far more that 25% to be minorities. Maybe more than 50% would be minorities in which case the incarceration numbers you quoted would look less like racism.

Why are more poor people in jail? First of all they commit more crimes. Before we do anything we conduct a "cost/benefit analysis". It is mostly a sub conscience thing, but before we act we consider what is the best case scenario if all goes right, and what is the worst case scenario if all goes wrong. If you're making $50,000, buying a house, driving a nice car, working a good job etc. boosting and selling a few hundred dollars worth of electronics each month does not have much of an upside (wouldn't significantly improve your finances), but getting caught and spending a few months in jail would be devastating. If you're marginally employed making $12,000 your cost/benefit analysis for the same situation will look much different.

Another factor is the quality of legal counsel. Different cities handle the public defender issue different ways. One is to have full time public defenders. I had one of those. I was (and still am) convinced he had that job because he couldn't get a job anywhere else. He was over worked and under paid. It was obvious his goal was to clear cases as quickly as possible which usually meant entering a guilty plea. The other way it can be handled is all the criminal lawyers in town take turns...in which case they would also prefer to clear cases quickly so they can move on to paying customers. If you have the money to pay a lawyer outright the more you fight for an innocent verdict the more he gets paid. You are paying by the hour so clearing your case quickly is not his goal.

[Napoleon17]

Originally Posted by Slap_j

Why are so many poor people in jail? In a nation that is 75% white, why are 65% of all inmates non-white? Something worth pondering for everyone.

Poor people are in jail because they steal (trying to not be as poor) or because they do drugs (probably why they are so poor). I know a dude whose car broke down, so he tried to steal another one. I guess he didn't have a lot of money sitting around to get his car fixed. So he got busted. He then lost his job, of course, and when his common law wife bailed him out of jail he tried to break into his neighbor's house to try to steal a computer.

65% of inmates are non-white partly because of the African-American culture (and partly because of cops attitudes towards African-Americans); the attitude towards prison is truly much different from how I was raised, and from how almost everyone I knew growing up was raised. I am white, and I lived about 15 miles outside of downtown Columbus, Ohio. Police did not drive by my house every single day looking for drugs/guns. I didn't grow up listening to music that promoted a F*** the police attitude (although as you can tell by my avatar I do now, lol). I never had an unregistered handgun, and never bought drugs. If I had gotten arrested, my parents would have killed me, or sent me to a boarding school or something. I almost did get arrested when I was 20. I was in a park with a girl (who is now my wife, before we began dating) after dark, eating dinner together and talking. The popo said it was a 2nd degree misdemeanor to be there after dark, and that it came with jail time. We were so scared to get put in jail that we were very polite and apologized and made it clear that we were just having some dinner, and that we didn't see the sign (which we did). The cop said he sees University students there a lot, and usually just warns them. So he let us off. If I had an attitude with the guy, I would have been in jail. If I had drugs or an unregistered handgun on me, I would have been in jail.

I know an elderly African-American lady, and when I found out that her son was put in jail, I was like "Oh, that sucks." And she responded by saying "It's not a big deal, he only got 5 months". I work in 4 urban cities, and I see that attitude every single day.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by jthomas1600

First of all I think race may be a factor, but a small one when compared to economics. I suspect if you did a survey of households with an annual income of less than $20,000 you would find far more that 25% to be minorities. Maybe more than 50% would be minorities in which case the incarceration numbers you quoted would look less like racism.

I couldn't find numbers for < $20,000 so I looked at percentages of people below the poverty line (in 2007). 8.2% are white. Around 45% are non-white. However what that looks like in sheer numbers is this:

White: 18,712,400 (8.2%)
Latino: 10,083,500 (21.5%)
Black: 9,287,200 (24.7%)

Even with a comparatively small percentage there are so many more white people in the U.S. that you'd almost have to add the latinos and blacks together to equal the white people living in poverty. This just doesn't account for the disparity we see:

1 in 106 white men are locked up
1 in 36 latino men
1 in 15 black men

Sorry, don't have stats on the women.

If you're marginally employed making $12,000 your cost/benefit analysis for the same situation will look much different.

I think that's a bit too simplistic but it's getting somewhere, namely that the poor don't have the same opportunities. My great grandfather was very poor and he turned to moonshining to support his family. They found his "goddamned" still (that's how the story always went) and locked him up. That's how it goes to this very day with the poor in Appalachia.

If you have the money to pay a lawyer outright the more you fight for an innocent verdict the more he gets paid. You are paying by the hour so clearing your case quickly is not his goal.

You're absolutely right. It's the main reason I cannot support the death penalty any more. You gotta wonder if some of these guys would be free if they had a team of well-paid and zealous lawyers behind them.

[jthomas1600]

Originally Posted by slap_j

You gotta wonder if some of these guys would be free if they had a team of well-paid and zealous lawyers behind them.

You mean like O J Simpson? That was probably one of the best examples of what a well paid legal team could do for you.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by jthomas1600

You mean like O J Simpson? That was probably one of the best examples of what a well paid legal team could do for you.

Yes, like O.J. (I'm making the presumption of innocence since that's the American way).

[Than]

Are we discussing jail or prison, here? I can see someone saying that jail is "cushy", but certainly not prison. Even then, I would challenge anyone who would say that jail is too cushy to spend a few nights on Rikers Island beforehand.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Than

Are we discussing jail or prison, here? I can see someone saying that jail is "cushy", but certainly not prison. Even then, I would challenge anyone who would say that jail is too cushy to spend a few nights on Rikers Island beforehand.

I wonder if our prison system violates the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the US constitution in several ways. I am white, dislike cops, and carried a handgun in my teen years. I don't anymore. The only reason I do not have a record is I used to could run, and I tended to have a knack for when the cops were going to come by.

A lot of my friends have done hard time. What goes on bothers me. Most of the kids I work with have a record. Some have two strikes. Most were trying to get out of the life they are in.

Believe me, I got kicked out and made it through college without help. It can be done, but it is ridiculously hard.