[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by metropolis4

One of the big problems we have with our overall volume is that we don't have any real sound guys. I'm super appreciative of the guys we have and their willingness to volunteer week after week, but they were the first one's to tell me they really don't know anything at all about running sound.

I know you probably know this, but unless you get this situation remedied, modelers, and electronic drums all run through just the house would have a similar problem.

Can you train some sound guys? Can someone in your church? Are they willing to learn?

If you fixed that, and got the drum situation resolved, (micing it decently, and perhaps shielding it then) an iso cab seems like the best solution to me in all frankness. But that requires as a must, a decent soundman.

But that is all for naught if the drums are muffled bass soup and nobody knows how to mix anything decently.

It sounds to me like you might try to fix the problem, but the real problem lies elsewhere.

[Major Tom]

Originally Posted by Stratopastor

Tom - thanks for this, also very interesting. My amp's stock setting gives NFB of 5% - is that a lot? if it's not much, removing it wouldn't make much difference. Maybe there was more NFB on your amps originally, therefore removing it makes more of a difference.

Thanks also for the idea of stacking stereo L-pads...

I guess amps do vary with the amount of NFB they use... The amount of change with/without NFB may also be somewhat dependent on input level, pre & post gain, eq control settings...?

I also have an Epi Galaxie, one 12AX7+ one 6L6 single ended amp that I bought to hack around on to see if I could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It has an NFB, but when I disconnected it, I did not hear any difference at all....but that was before I put in a real output transformer which converted it from awful sounding toy to a viable gig-worthy amp. With the puny original, the signal was uber-saturated (like every other budget single ended amp that I have tried), and nothing I did made any actual improvements, the tone was so horrible... change tubes, tone stack values...still horrible. I might revisit that NFB now that it has some actual headroom to work with, it might actually exhibit a difference.

If you haven't tried the Lpads for power attenuation, they work very well, IMO. Yes, if you turn it down to where it is barely on, which will literally be a fraction of a watt, it will sound dull and lifeless, just like the amp did when using the master volume to achieve that same SPL. I believe that is a combination of how our ears work at low SPL's, the minimum threshold of "decent tone" required by the specific speaker(s), and some degree of tone suckage from attenuating an amp down to fractional wattage. Turn it up to where the speaker is actually getting a whole watt or two, and it sounds good, turn it up some more, even better.

As far as using the stereo 8 ohm Lpads in parallel to achieve a 4 ohm, FWIW, I actually have done that and measured the results to make sure it yielded a 4 ohm load throughout its range - it did.

[Hopeful]

Originally Posted by metropolis4

One of the big problems we have with our overall volume is that we don't have any real sound guys. I'm super appreciative of the guys we have and their willingness to volunteer week after week, but they were the first one's to tell me they really don't know anything at all about running sound.

Because of this we get weird eq effects across the board. They often don't know how to eq each instrument properly to fit it's place in the mix. We end up with a volume that's too loud but it's all muddy low end and no mids. I can't help because I'm either playing or singing and can't get to a place where I can hear. And I can't get much helpful information from them, or anyone else about exactly why it's too loud, where in the room, and what frequencies so it's hard for me to diagnose what's going on. Our sound guys don't understand that you can't just get everything set and then turn the master down like you would on a CD player. They keep doing that and it messes up the EQ and balance and everything sounds horrible. I honestly think if we could get someone who really knows what they're doing we could get everything balanced and mixed well enough that volume wouldn't be an issue. I'm working right now on convincing our lead pastor to let me bring in a professional for a few Sundays to help dial everything in and do some training with our guys.

It is a gym though and the acoustics are horrible. We've got sound bouncing around quite a bit and no way we can put anything on the walls to help. They've also recently bought small tables for people to sit at and decided they want those close to the front, so we've got people sitting about 3 feet away from where the amps and drums are.

Our pastor asked me about putting up a drum shield. The problem is we have acoustic drums and only a mic for the bass drum so when we put up a shield it kills the drum mix in the house. Everything sounds muffled and muddy and doesn't balance at all because there's nothing coming out of the mains. He also asked about in-ear monitors, but honestly I don't think they'll help us when we have acoustic drums and live amps on stage. We aren't running a very hot monitor mix anyway. They like to put the mains behind us for some reason and I can usually hear myself through them over the monitor.

Right now I'm working on convincing the lead pastor that, while we can do some to control volume, ultimately part of having a live band in a small room is a certain volume level that you can't really do anything about without drastically altering the way it sounds and the way we play.

.

All the best equipment in the world won't help if the guys running the board are clueless. Getting the right sound guy is probably more important than getting the best singers and musicians on one stage. I highlighted what I think is a great idea. Get a pro to teach them what all those little knobs, buttons and sliders do. Have the pro record what is a good mix so that your guys have an audio reference point as well as a visual one. Heck, record it anyway just so everyone knows what you sound like now.

A couple things I see wrong in your setup. First, you're in a gym. Second, setting up tables three feet from the amps and drums will blast anybody - there's no dispersion of sound. If you're in front of the amp, all you'll hear is the guitar and so forth. These folks must be sitting in front of your amp and only a groupie would like that. In my opinion, in this setting, I would suggest that you go acoustic and unmic'd except for the voices. The drummer can play with soft sticks (I'm not a fan of drum shields because your drummer does not know how he sounds unless it is recorded). Next, putting the mains behind you will only create feedback through the mics. It's a recipe for disaster and I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet unless they have the mics down so low, it hasn't caused a problem. Your mains should always go in front of the mics.

[Stratopastor]

Volume issues in general - if you're in a gym, has anyone thought of doing a 'Roy Buchanan' and angling the amp(s), in necessary away from the audience/congregation, in search of a way of bouncing the sound around the room so that more people get an even spread? (Not intended as an instant cure for all the problems described).

Tom - if I understand the Galaxie schematic correctly, there's 15% NFB - I still don't know if that's regarded as a little or a lot by amp designers, but I would expect more effect in removing it than I got on my amp (5% NFB).

Also I made myself an attenuator because I was inspired by you in this forum some years ago, so thanks again. I added a little inductance, but that was the only extra to the basic idea and it works really well.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by Stratopastor

Volume issues in general - if you're in a gym, has anyone thought of doing a 'Roy Buchanan' and angling the amp(s), in necessary away from the audience/congregation, in search of a way of bouncing the sound around the room so that more people get an even spread? (Not intended as an instant cure for all the problems described).

Yeah, I've been searching for the best way to position everything. I've been setting my amp on one extreme side of the stage and facing it across the stage to try and limit the amount of sound that's going straight forward. I've also been setting the drums on the other side of the stage facing in a little bit at an angle.

All the best equipment in the world won't help if the guys running the board are clueless. Getting the right sound guy is probably more important than getting the best singers and musicians on one stage. I highlighted what I think is a great idea. Get a pro to teach them what all those little knobs, buttons and sliders do. Have the pro record what is a good mix so that your guys have an audio reference point as well as a visual one. Heck, record it anyway just so everyone knows what you sound like now.

I know you probably know this, but unless you get this situation remedied, modelers, and electronic drums all run through just the house would have a similar problem.

Can you train some sound guys? Can someone in your church? Are they willing to learn?

If you fixed that, and got the drum situation resolved, (micing it decently, and perhaps shielding it then) an iso cab seems like the best solution to me in all frankness. But that requires as a must, a decent soundman.

But that is all for naught if the drums are muffled bass soup and nobody knows how to mix anything decently.

It sounds to me like you might try to fix the problem, but the real problem lies elsewhere.

I definitely agree this is the biggest problem. Unfortunately all the professional sound guys I know are very busy and most of them work at other churches so it's difficult to make it work out. We need to do something though, right now the mix is really bad out there, and on the stage.

I'd say muffled bass soup perfectly describes our overall mix right now

A couple things I see wrong in your setup. First, you're in a gym. Second, setting up tables three feet from the amps and drums will blast anybody - there's no dispersion of sound. If you're in front of the amp, all you'll hear is the guitar and so forth. These folks must be sitting in front of your amp and only a groupie would like that. In my opinion, in this setting, I would suggest that you go acoustic and unmic'd except for the voices. The drummer can play with soft sticks (I'm not a fan of drum shields because your drummer does not know how he sounds unless it is recorded). Next, putting the mains behind you will only create feedback through the mics. It's a recipe for disaster and I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet unless they have the mics down so low, it hasn't caused a problem. Your mains should always go in front of the mics.

This gets into lots of discussions I'm having with the pastor about exactly what my roll is and what they are expecting from me. They "hired" me to do music, but he is still doing a lot of things for me without consulting with me first. Right now I have no control over the room, how the tables are set, or (to an extent) what styles of music we do. Surprisingly the mains have done ok for now, it's on my list of things to get fixed though because I know it's just a matter of time before we have a huge feedback issue. Especially with the way things are being mic'd... ugh, I won't even get into mic placement..

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by metropolis4

I definitely agree this is the biggest problem. Unfortunately all the professional sound guys I know are very busy and most of them work at other churches so it's difficult to make it work out. We need to do something though, right now the mix is really bad out there, and on the stage.

I'd say muffled bass soup perfectly describes our overall mix right now

Can you help train them? I mean, at all, as a preliminary thing. I am figuring you sound like you know some at the very least...

[Hopeful]

I think that you should start recording the music set this very Sunday. Then, as soon as possible, you should sit down with the sound guys (and pastor too) and have everyone explain what they are hearing (let everyone else speak before you do). Hopefully, it should be evident to all what it is going out into the congregation. Try to get a consensus among everyone that there are problems with the mix. Then, as you're listening, at least you will know what EQ adjustments you think might make a difference. Generally, a muddy mix has too much bass and mids and not enough highs, though it's not that simple.

Do you think you could post a copy of the music set so we could hear? Maybe we could offer some observations about what we're hearing too and make suggestions.

Also, seems like the pastor needs to let some things go.

[mt_spiffy]

Let me ask a question.

If volume is an issue, and you have a full band, right now, why is the music going through the FOH?

Take all the instruments out the system, including those that are miced. Just have the vocal mics in the house and monitors. Start there, see if volume is still a problem, and add things into the system as needed.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Can you help train them? I mean, at all, as a preliminary thing. I am figuring you sound like you know some at the very least...

I've been trying a bit each week and it is helping, but I need someone who can be back there while I'm playing who can really show them how to do it. I know a bit, but I'd like to get someone who knows more than me to come in.

I think that you should start recording the music set this very Sunday. Then, as soon as possible, you should sit down with the sound guys (and pastor too) and have everyone explain what they are hearing (let everyone else speak before you do). Hopefully, it should be evident to all what it is going out into the congregation. Try to get a consensus among everyone that there are problems with the mix. Then, as you're listening, at least you will know what EQ adjustments you think might make a difference. Generally, a muddy mix has too much bass and mids and not enough highs, though it's not that simple.

Do you think you could post a copy of the music set so we could hear? Maybe we could offer some observations about what we're hearing too and make suggestions.

Good ideas, I think I'll try that. I like the idea of having everyone discuss what they are hearing and start getting them thinking a bit more about the mix itself.
I wish I could post something, but right now we don't have the means to record. I'm going to work on that tough, because I think it would help everyone if we could record and listen back. I like that idea

Let me ask a question.

If volume is an issue, and you have a full band, right now, why is the music going through the FOH?

Take all the instruments out the system, including those that are miced. Just have the vocal mics in the house and monitors. Start there, see if volume is still a problem, and add things into the system as needed.

I don't think this would work for us for a few reasons. First, we have keys and bass going direct so they would still need to be in there. If we kept them and the vocals in the mains, but took out the drums and guitar I think we'd have a weird balance. And the only thing mic'd on the drums right now is the bass.

I also wouldn't want to do this because my musicians aren't experienced enough to know how to listen in and balance themselves in a mix controlling their volume. We're working on this, but at this point they would have a hard time doing that. And my sound guys would have an even harder time trying to balance what they had control over.

[mt_spiffy]

Originally Posted by metropolis4

I don't think this would work for us for a few reasons. First, we have keys and bass going direct so they would still need to be in there. If we kept them and the vocals in the mains, but took out the drums and guitar I think we'd have a weird balance. And the only thing mic'd on the drums right now is the bass.

I also wouldn't want to do this because my musicians aren't experienced enough to know how to listen in and balance themselves in a mix controlling their volume. We're working on this, but at this point they would have a hard time doing that.

But your sound guys arent either.

You would need a keyboard amp and a bass amp for my suggestions. It would take a lot of burden off the sound crew, and your stage volume wouldnt be as much an issue.

Try it.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by mt_spiffy

But your sound guys arent either.

You would need a keyboard amp and a bass amp for my suggestions. It would take a lot of burden off the sound crew, and your stage volume wouldnt be as much an issue.

Try it.

I don't understand how adding keyboard and bass amps is going to make stage volume less of an issue...

This would also require quite an investment to purchase these amps when I don't even know how it's going to work. This is a small church with a tight budget as it is, I would rather look at options that aren't going to cost this much money.

Besides, it means I have four individuals who don't have the experience to balance themselves trying to balance the sound, rather than one individual who doesn't have experience trying to do it. It seems to me I'd be better off having one person in control of it rather than four people trying to do it individually.

I love my bands, and I'm extremely appreciative of what they do, but the level of experience and musicianship is fairly low. They are constantly learning, but still they don't have the stage experience to know how to balance themselves with a band, especially if we were to have them in complete control of their mix.

it just wouldn't work.

[Stratopastor]

We got some training in for our sound guys last year. I think the trainer only said one thing that they can actually remember now, but it's made a great improvement and every time I look at the mixer I can see it's still being obeyed. It was "never boost any frequencies - none of the eq knobs should be pointing to the right". I know it's silly as a 100% all-time law of the Medes and Persians but the effect on Sundays can't be denied. Maybe eventually they'll treat it like one of those rules which _can_ be broken once you've learned to obey it....