[Rainer.]

I agree with Rachael. Counseling for your relationship is a great idea. But having a talk with every time you're having this issue is not going to help healing.

There is a lot of wisdom and counsel here, aye.


You know Jack, I for one think a lot of your actions make sense. Far, far too much of your story is familiar to me. I've been reading and re-reading over this thread, and much of what you're saying has similar hues and shapes and outlines to the image of my life.

As such, I've been thinking about it, and may be trying to work through these very issues myself through the next statements.



Reader warning: My coherence at this hour cannot be guaranteed.



To me, I read your story, and see two hurt people trying desperately to cope with the worst pain they've ever felt in their lives.

Under the influence of the strength of those emotions, you both made choices. That is, if you can even call them choices. I understand that you two tried to cope with your emotional pain by masking it with physical intimacy when you were together.

Felt better for a moment, felt far worse when it was over. But getting high off physicality seemed like the only option when you've crashed and are in the lowest of the low.

Essentially, we're addicts. For intimacy. The Drug. You, her. I am as well.

Physical intimacy has infinite psychological ramifications when you're involved in a relationship of any kind. Of course, this statement is the obvious one.

If you get used to it in a relationship, the withdrawal from it has an unbelievable power. Couple that with the factor of emotional intimacy, and then you get the situation where if a breakup is going cold turkey on intimacy with someone, then we should cease to function after it. It's a wonder we don't just curl up and die.



So, the problem is that we're still addicts, you and I.

The question is how well can we try to learn to love when intimacy fills our deepest desires, and love is the sole fuel for true intimacy? Her past interactions were a threat to your intimacy with her. But love keeps no record of wrongs. You feel like you shouldn't be angry at her, but you are.

Perhaps the simpler message in all of this is that a re-thinking is in order. The intimacy addition needs to be controlled in order for a desire for love to overwhelm the negativity that you inevitably associate with the past.

Perhaps learning to rehabilitate from this addiction will indeed need to take precedence over the desire to wed. Is this desire to wed fueled in any part by a fear of going without intimacy?

Though indeed, a desire to get closer to one another is an important part of preparing to marry. God gave us a desire to be intimate with one another, but there's a healthy amount it can contribute to our decisions, and there is an unhealthy amount.

Where that threshold falls is indeed a question to be pondered with capital importance...

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

I don't have a fundamentally casual attitude toward premarital sex, but relative to other forms of impurity, I do. If my casualness towards impurity in general is at 20%, my casualness towards premarital sex is at 19%. Neither one is particularly casual, but comparing one to the other gives that impression because they are so close together.

I'm going to say, having worked with youth for more than a year now, my attitude has gone far more stringent on this. A lot of people believe that its no big deal to have premarital sex, that that person has just harmed themselves, etc.

The simple biblical fact is that that is not the case. I don't think God set it up as a capital crime in ancient Israel as a point of curiosity. The fact is, it damages the entire Christian community. It colors ideas of family and relationship, inhibiting the church from being the family of God. How can we be a family, when we have sexual history with 5 of our fellow siblings in Christ? That is the challenge we face. Not fun.

Aside from that, I disagree fundamentally that virginity does not make you more pure in one area. It actually does. It means portals to all kinds of relationship nastiness and insecurity that can bedevil a relationship are closed.

Also, I know there is a sense of humility in what you say about prostitutes on Bourbon street, but as point of fact, its not true neccissarily. I know people who make me look like coal dust, and those who in comparison are pure.

Daniel, there ARE real lines in this life that show you who you are, and that you never come back from all the way. Some of the acts of violence I have done, have crossed lines that should never be crossed and are more severe than hating your brother. There are things I have done that have damaged others lives and done violence to my own soul that cannot be the same.

In a very real sense, premarital sex crosses lines that can't be uncrossed, and creates baggage that will not go away. For me, those weren't the lines that got crossed. Yeah, I have issues there from child abuse, we all know that. But at the same time, I watch in so many lives and see the catastrophic damage that was done and I can't help but be upset at the apathy of Christians towards this.

I agree personal purity is important, but by eliminating the gradient, (which is not what Jesus is doing, which is showing the self righteous that they are not guiltless) you make it as if you look at a girl and get arroused, figure might as well be condemned for many sins as few as you are already guilty of adultery and go much further into worse sin. Now thats the scenario my wife's grandfather fell into in a dream and up until a year before his death lived that way.

There are sins worse than others, and there are people worse than others. They may not come with occupational signs on their forehead and we are not to be their judge in some senses but scripture is chock full of references to this in the New Testament.

You are, at least according to scripture better than the hookers on Bourbon Street according to 1 Cor 6: 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

We need to live in light of the washing, forgiveness and sanctification of the Spirit in our lives.

[bobthecockroach]

Bill, I am going to defer to your experience and not press the issue any further. I will just say that even if everything you say is right, no one can hold themselves innocent and no one should withhold forgiveness because they think someone's sin is too great. Even if I am "better" than the prostitutes on Bourbon Street, one of the most fundamental commands that God gives is to be humble, and I have no right to treat them any less than I would want to be treated myself. That is really the heart of what I was trying to say.

Luke 18:9-14; Matthew 7:12 (ESV)
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Bill, I am going to defer to your experience and not press the issue any further. I will just say that even if everything you say is right, no one can hold themselves innocent and no one should withhold forgiveness because they think someone's sin is too great. Even if I am "better" than the prostitutes on Bourbon Street, one of the most fundamental commands that God gives is to be humble, and I have no right to treat them any less than I would want to be treated myself. That is really the heart of what I was trying to say.

Luke 18:9-14; Matthew 7:12 (ESV)
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

I agree with that, but I am trying to throw in the fact that we are redeemed, washed, sanctified believers as well. It is the Lutheran tension of simultaneously being saint and sinner .

I agree that in how you treat others you are right on. However, I think we need to be much harder on ourselves in reality, and much harder on the body of Christ. We are to quote Paul, not to judge the world. However, observation has taught me that I need to be aware of exactly what I am capable of, but at the same time, live as a light in a dark world.

There is a tension there, but the tension of living as a saint in this world is what we need to strive for. If we accept that we are as wicked as the world it becomes a relatively small deal to profane the name of Christ by our lives through the fact that we accept we are nothing but wickedness.

Hence why for me knowing that some sins are worse than others is critical. Also, forgiveness for some offenses is just plain harder. Which is easier to forgive, someone who hated your family without a cause, or the psycho who murders them all without a cause? The impact of different sins is different.

That said, my advice for the original poster would be to look at himself, look at the situation and seek to forgive realizing there is nothing to figure out here. You have to do so every day, and forgiveness is a state of mind that effects actions, not holding that person to pay for their crimes. I think ultimately a lack of forgiveness is the source of the issue here. Not that he isn't trying, but several things tip off the fact that in his head, Jack still holds her guilty.

Realizing the extent of the offense against God and their potential future marriage (Which it was, those who have said it wasn't, I feel as if that is just patently crazy. Each one of our purity before and during marriage directly effects their spouse.) is one of the first steps in getting over it. The other is realizing that it is a daily battle you choose to fight every day and that to be honest, it is a constant choice to forgive, to hold a person guiltless and only when you make a habit of that to the point you can forget it ever occurred is there going to be freedom.

Calling a person names or accusing them is not going to help them get over this, but what some of you have called abuse is essentially, I think unforgiven here.

I am disregarding the breakup, for though stupid and cruel, it is a very common mistake and that in itself, while stupid, was not a blatant sin. You can act as if it is and worse than sexual sin, but the Bible calls adultery a sin. Breaking up stupidly would be a stupid mistake.


That said, there is a lot here that I think needs to be dealt with before marriage is an option that should be considered or committed to. Forgiveness first and a commitment to a pure relationship need to be the top priorities.

[earlessdog]

This is a very informing thread.