[nolidad]

Eight times during hte campaign Pres. Obama promised to the nation that health care reform would be done openly, honestly, bipartisan, with all major players at th etable and briadcast on C-Span.

This link shows th e8 times he said so:

Breitbart.tv » The C-SPAN Lie? See Eight Clips of Obama Promising Televised Healthcare Negotiations

In short- many of these negotiations were done behind locked doors, no C-span coverage- voting on bills that weren't even written yet, Republicans not consulted in the early stages ( I understand why not later)-- just another politicians breaking all his promises. Even Pelosi made a subtle dig.

Breitbart.tv » Pelosi Takes Swipe at Obama’s Promises on Campaign Trail


As for Senators not even knwoing whats inteh bill-- just peruse some of these links - some conservative, some moderate some neutral- but make no mistake that most senators don't have a clue what really is in this bill.

Baucus claims it's too difficult to put health care bill online | Washington Examiner

Even Senators Don’t Understand Reid Bill « Patients First | Hands Off Our Health Care!
Democrats Reid, Pelosi ponder crafting Obama's final healthcare bill behind closed doors | Top of the Ticket | Los Angeles Times

Sen. Coburn Forces Reading of 767-Page Amendment - Sen. Baucus Admits Senators Don’t Understand the Bill - hogan’s Diary - RedState

CNSNews.com - Finance Committee Democrat Won’t Read Text of Health Bill, Says Anyone Who Claims They’ll Understand It ‘Is Trying to Pull the Wool Over Our Eyes’

And then let us not forget how "pimp-daddy Reid" bought alot fo votes to insure its passage.

$300 million dollars for Mary Landrau
$100 million dollar hospital for Senator Dodd
Billions for Ben Nelson by keeping his state from ever having to pay for medicaid increases.

Amongst others.

What is the rush? Why are they shoving this bill mostly unread by the senate ?

There are theories but without the admission of Reid, Pelosi et al they are just theories. For being such a crisis- the senate bill has no public option, insures less than half the unisured, cuts benefits for seniors, increases premiums for everybody- and forces people to have to buy insurance, face a fine or go to jail as a requirement to be a citizen in good standing- a wholly unconstitutional usurpation of power and authority.

Me thinks november will be a blood bath for the Democratic party (and the Republicans too if they do not wise up)

So now that the rhetoric is shown to be true-

We see Obama lied, and the senate is passing a bill tehy have little clue how they are enslaving Americans.

[Ax]

Oh noes, a politician broke their promise, is it a full moon out? Has Walt Disney been thawed? Has hell frozen over? Oh, no, sorry, It's just another day in politics.


On a more serious note:

I honestly feel bad for Obama because the amount of useless drivel and flack the Republicans and "non-partisan conservatives" (ie. Republicans in all but name) give the man. Sure Bush took his fair share of it from the Dems but I think Obama gets it way worse and in a much less intelligent manner. I don't like the guy, I disagree with him on a lot of places, but I don't troll the internet from forum to forum reposting anything that Glenn Beck and his cronies have said one billion times. Seriously, if you want to rise above American politics, if you want to be taken seriously, and if you want people to consider your opinions more than mindless babbling, stop the libel and discuss things with civility and an open mind.

One last thing, a wise person once said "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

Noli, I'm not aiming this directly at you, it just happens to be that your post is here doing this same thing that thousands of others are doing. If I had a place to say this to the thousands of people like you out there doing this, I'd do it all at once. Please, please, please stop and think if what you're doing is harming more than hurting before posting, because all I get from things like this is a hostile attitude and it makes me and several other angry and makes us think less of Republicans in general.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Ax

Oh noes, a politician broke their promise, is it a full moon out?

"Read my lips: no new taxes."

[Ridley's Own]

I am not a crook.

[Ax]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

I am not a crook.

that was a lie, not a campaign promise.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Ax

Oh noes, a politician broke their promise, is it a full moon out? Has Walt Disney been thawed? Has hell frozen over? Oh, no, sorry, It's just another day in politics.


On a more serious note:

I honestly feel bad for Obama because the amount of useless drivel and flack the Republicans and "non-partisan conservatives" (ie. Republicans in all but name) give the man. Sure Bush took his fair share of it from the Dems but I think Obama gets it way worse and in a much less intelligent manner. I don't like the guy, I disagree with him on a lot of places, but I don't troll the internet from forum to forum reposting anything that Glenn Beck and his cronies have said one billion times. Seriously, if you want to rise above American politics, if you want to be taken seriously, and if you want people to consider your opinions more than mindless babbling, stop the libel and discuss things with civility and an open mind.

One last thing, a wise person once said "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

Noli, I'm not aiming this directly at you, it just happens to be that your post is here doing this same thing that thousands of others are doing. If I had a place to say this to the thousands of people like you out there doing this, I'd do it all at once. Please, please, please stop and think if what you're doing is harming more than hurting before posting, because all I get from things like this is a hostile attitude and it makes me and several other angry and makes us think less of Republicans in general.

Well if we held by not saying anything at all if it isn't nice- nearly every govt. and current event thread about American politics would be removed!!

I also am not a republican- but a registered independent. I personally would favor the rise of a "conservative party.

It is simply holding people accountable fo their words. Obama was swept into office on the promise of being a new kind of politician (another well worn promise) and making very specific promises that are being very specifically broken! There are many things Obama has said and done I applaud, but being on the right and he on the left- I will disagree far more than agree- as He is further left than any other president in recent history.

His entire agenda so far has bewen a henny penny type of we need to get it done now or armeggedon could occur mentality.

1. Tarp
2. the stimulus bill
3. Health care (biggest bone of contention now)
4. cap and trade.
5. stimulus 2
6. Fannie and Freddie
7. the auto bailout

These involve trillions upon trillions of dollars of your and my money (if you are an American). They should be discussed openly and debated with passion and as much civility as possible(no pelosi calling tea baggers - thugs and Nazis and tea baggers not portraying Obama like th joker or hitler as the liberal protesters did to Bush 2). Thjese could enslave the American people fiscally for generations to come as they already are with the over $100 trillion dollar unfunded liability we already have for S.S., Medicare, and the Rx drug program. People have a right to get angry at any politician who does what Reid and Pelosi are doing and Obama giving his implied consent by not stopping all this covert activity(indeed he is even partnmer in some of it).

Once again this isn't about a million dollars for a statue of a Senator in his home state- but a radical transforming of America!

I honestly feel bad for Obama because the amount of useless drivel and flack the Republicans and "non-partisan conservatives" (ie. Republicans in all but name) give the man. Sure Bush took his fair share of it from the Dems but I think Obama gets it way worse and in a much less intelligent manner. I don't like the guy, I disagree with him on a lot of places, but I don't troll the internet from forum to forum reposting anything that Glenn Beck and his cronies have said one billion times. Seriously, if you want to rise above American politics, if you want to be taken seriously, and if you want people to consider your opinions more than mindless babbling, stop the libel and discuss things with civility and an open mind.

Well I won't divert to how much flak he takes is in a much less intelligent manner than how Bush took flak (like the guard story that brought down a news anchor), but this is American politics. I don't agree with character attacks but politics is open to debate. Obama is a community organizer- he said ti himself since he was inaugarated! He believes in massive federal govt.! He is even outdoing the progressive Bush in growing the fed! And also if we will not hold people accountable for their words then what do you propose as an alternative? Just let politicians lie with impunity?

The biggest reason why the left is escoriating the right more now than before is that conservatives are organizing and speaking out in a loud voice. This is way beyond Beck and Oreilly and Hannity and Rush Windbag. Conservatives (generally speaking) tend to want ot just live their life peaceably, quietly and live and let live for the most part. HOWEVER, because teh left has more and more been encroaching on that goal- conservatives have become more vocal. Teh left is getting firghtened because the common folk on the right are doing what teh left has doen for decades- organizing on teh grass roots level and speaking out louder and louder. It is th etool the left has used and it is now being turned against them.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Once again this isn't about a million dollars for a statue of a Senator in his home state- but a radical transforming of America!

Hawaii has a healthcare system that is more progressive than this bill. Radical might be more apt for a publicly funded system (unless you take other developed nations into account) but here it's just hyperbolic and not in a way that illuminates anything other than disdain for this legislation and for this administration. Kind of like calling Obama "far left." It's purpose is not description but deprecation.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by Ax

that was a lie, not a campaign promise.

With Nixon, they were probably one and the same.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by nolidad

"pimp-daddy Reid"

Its the first post and we're already resorting to childish name calling? ugh, this stuff is getting really tiring...

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Eight times during hte campaign Pres. Obama promised to the nation that health care reform would be done openly, honestly, bipartisan, with all major players at th etable and briadcast on C-Span.

YOu just don't like who the major players turned out to be.

But show me where Obama is being opaque or dishonest. The healtcare debate seems to be happening in the public to me.

In short- many of these negotiations were done behind locked doors, no C-span coverage- voting on bills that weren't even written yet, Republicans not consulted in the early stages ( I understand why not later)-- just another politicians breaking all his promises.

And that's just you with hyperbolic rhetoric.

As for Senators not even knwoing whats inteh bill-- just peruse some of these links - some conservative, some moderate some neutral- but make no mistake that most senators don't have a clue what really is in this bill.

Baucus claims it's too difficult to put health care bill online | Washington Examiner

And this is where I'm going to stop responding because your just following one lie with another.

So you say that the healthcare bill is not available for review, that it's not in the public, that they are making excuses to not put it online?

Here it is online:
House Health Care Bill (Full Text)

Would you like the senate version?
http://help.senate.gov/BAI09A84_xml.pdf

I found those on the first links from the first google search.

Your entire premise is dishonest.

[tlj009]

But show me where Obama is being opaque or dishonest. The healtcare debate seems to be happening in the public to me.

I have heard that C-Span is upset about not being able to coverage the negotiations.

Health Care Insurance Reform Legislation Town Halls - C-SPAN

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010...erhaul-TV.html

[nolidad]

But show me where Obama is being opaque or dishonest. The healtcare debate seems to be happening in the public to me.

Well teh public is debating it- but go and look at Obamas 8 specific promises and then tell me where he fulfilled them and case closed.

YOu just don't like who the major players turned out to be.

While that is true- it is irrelevant to teh broken promises about how Obama said health care reform would be discussed.

And that's just you with hyperbolic rhetoric.

You should watch CNN or read national news from time to time. (I left Fox out cuz I know you think they aren't a news station)

Your entire premise is dishonest.

Take it up with Sen. Baucus (D) whom I qouted.

Wo

uld you like the senate version?
http://help.senate.gov/BAI09A84_xml.pdf

Which evolution is this? This is 615 pages- the onew the senate passed is over 2000 pages.

Here it is online:
House Health Care Bill (Full Text)

This doesn't even list which bill it was. Its only 1018 pages, and the one that passed the house was over 1900 pages so this doesn't fit the bill.

Metropolis writes:Its the first post and we're already resorting to childish name calling? ugh, this stuff is getting really tiring...

Well I don't know what else to call teh Majority leader of the Senate when in order to pass a bill He gives out over a billion dollars of taxpayer money to buy votes (Even Sen. Landrau admitted Reid bought her vote). It is so bad that 8 states attorney generals are looking into possible illegalities (but they are GOP so that will be called partisan) but even some dems as well are looking into possible illegal conduct in this.

Sp briber- crook - extortioner? When they threatened Joe Lieberman with his chairmanship if he didn't vote- what do we call that?

Hawaii has a healthcare system that is more progressive than this bill. Radical might be more apt for a publicly funded system (unless you take other developed nations into account) but here it's just hyperbolic and not in a way that illuminates anything other than disdain for this legislation and for this administration. Kind of like calling Obama "far left." It's purpose is not description but deprecation

.

And just like massachusetts- it is driving th estate into bankruptcy.

Yes I hate this legislation- the way it was crafted in teh dark, the way th eleadership bribed senators to vote for it, the way it will cut promised benefits to seniors, to how it will raise drastically costs to middle class families, to how it will ruin the nation (the surplusses are just lies). And Obama is on the far left of the political spectrum- He is more left than Kennedy and Hillary- I don't like his politics- but I pray for him almost daily that God would grant him wisdom and a sound leadership.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by nolidad

And just like massachusetts- it is driving th estate into bankruptcy.

I don't know what you're referring to but you're missing the point. What I'm saying is that just because you don't like the bill doesn't mean it's radical.

And Obama is on the far left of the political spectrum

Obama is only the far left if you ignore everything to the left of social democracy--socialism, communism, green politics, most strains of anarchism, etc. You're being either inaccurate or pejorative. I think it's the latter and what it boils down to is that it's wearying for the people you're having a discussion with.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by slap_j

I don't know what you're referring to but you're missing the point. What I'm saying is that just because you don't like the bill doesn't mean it's radical.



Obama is only the far left if you ignore everything to the left of social democracy--socialism, communism, green politics, most strains of anarchism, etc. You're being either inaccurate or pejorative. I think it's the latter and what it boils down to is that it's wearying for the people you're having a discussion with.

Wel lit is radical in the sense it is a drastic changing of the way things have been done in America.

Well then let me be clear those (except social democracy) are the extreme left wing. All listed are ideas that have little or no real standing in American Politics so I don't even consider those in calling Obama far left.

Teh right- I would put Mike savage as extreme right, Hannity and Beck far right and Oreilly just to the right, not moderate conservative -but true conservative not just further than the others.

You may thinkit pejorative- I call it descriptive.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Wel lit is radical in the sense it is a drastic changing of the way things have been done in America.

Okay, but drastic is not a synonym for radical. The basics are the same. For-profit, private. Not even a public option.

Well then let me be clear those (except social democracy) are the extreme left wing. All listed are ideas that have little or no real standing in American Politics so I don't even consider those in calling Obama far left.

You were clear. I had you pegged exactly right. You're ignoring what actually does pass for the far left so you can shoehorn Obama in there. For everyone who doesn't know you're using your own private definition it makes it appear as if you're characterizing Obama as someone who espouses a political philosophy that is as radically different from our system as communism or anarchism.

You may thinkit pejorative- I call it descriptive.

I think it's pretty clear that you place negative connotations on such words.