[jthomas1600]

This article is interesting. The Facts What are your thoughts on this sort of thing. I know things are done differently in the Catholic church than most protestant church's. Does the Catholic church do this to ordinary lay people or is this priest just playing politics.

Also, I was at an independent baptist church recently (visiting family) and the pastor had prepared communion, but told the congregation he didn't think they were in a good enough place to partake. Anyone else hear of this sort of thing? Does the pastor have an obligation to make sure the congregation doesn't partake in an unworthy manner? Does that obligation out weigh the rest of the congregations right to partake? Thoughts?

[Chrysostom]

Have you ever heard of excommunication? Ex-Commune-ication, that is -- being put outside of Communion. This is the most extreme form of church discipline. It has historically been a part of Protestant churches, but as Communion came to be seen as less and less important due to Revivalism it stopped making much sense.

There is a twin practice known as Fencing The Table, which means barring those who are outside of the Communion of the Church from participating in the sacrament of Communion. For instance, during the Reformation there was a group of people known as the Libertines, who were basically a group of what we would have called Swingers -- wife-swapping and such was their common practice. When they entered his church and tried to Commune, John Calvin wrapped his arms around the Table and said, "These hands you may crush, these arms you may lop off, my life you may take, my blood is yours, you may shed it; but you shall never force me to give holy things to the profaned, and dishonor the table of my God." It was, as you might imagine, a pretty serious deal.

This practice extends to Baptist churches as well. For instance, the well-known Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon delivered a sermon titled Fencing The Table. (Spurgeon, preferring individual autonomy, thinks that the table should be "fenced" not by God's minister but in the individual Christian's heart.)

In your particular case I can't say I know exactly what was going on. In any independent church there is always a great danger that a minister can use his autonomy for sheer personal power. After all, it seems incredibly unlikely to me that an entire church would be in such dire need of repentance that everyone should be barred from the Table, unless something horrendous was going on -- in that case, however, I would think that you would know about it!

Remember, after all, that Paul spends most of 1 Corinthians telling the Corinthians to stop doing all the terrible things they are doing -- incest, denial of the resurrection, etc. -- and yet none of this makes him tell them as a group that they are barred from Communion. The closest he comes is in chapter 11, where he says that they need to examine themselves before they Commune, because they are dividing into groups of rich and poor people, and this contradicts their participation in the one bread, the one body, of Christ.

(FYI, excommunication is and always has been extremely uncommon in the Roman Catholic Church. You really have to try to get excommunicated. This should tell you just how seriously Rome takes abortion.)

The Supper is not for those who are perfect, but for those who through continual repentance would be found in Christ. It is Christ's body and blood given for us, not to point out how great we already are but to feed and nourish weak and weary souls. "Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat."

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by jthomas1600

This article is interesting. The Facts What are your thoughts on this sort of thing. I know things are done differently in the Catholic church than most protestant church's. Does the Catholic church do this to ordinary lay people or is this priest just playing politics.

Also, I was at an independent baptist church recently (visiting family) and the pastor had prepared communion, but told the congregation he didn't think they were in a good enough place to partake. Anyone else hear of this sort of thing? Does the pastor have an obligation to make sure the congregation doesn't partake in an unworthy manner? Does that obligation out weigh the rest of the congregations right to partake? Thoughts?

Without getting in to differences in Communion, yes this Bishop is well within biblical grounds to forbid the person involved from participating in communion. Paul made it clear that to partake with willful sin can lead to death.

As for that Baptist Pastor- that is unknown. He either was being too autocratic or knew of serious congregational issues that should be dealt with. Without the facts it is unknown and then again- it is not our congregation so that makes us even further removed from the abilityt o discern.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by Disciplinary Rubrics, Book of Common Prayer, 1979

If the priest knows that a person who is living a notoriously evil life
intends to come to Communion, the priest shall speak to that person
privately, and tell him that he may not come to the Holy Table until he
has given clear proof of repentance and amendment of life.

The priest shall follow the same procedure with those who have done
wrong to their neighbors and are a scandal to the other members of the
congregation, not allowing such persons to receive Communion until
they have made restitution for the wrong they have done, or have at least
promised to do so.

When the priest sees that there is hatred between members of the
congregation, he shall speak privately to them, telling them that they
may not receive Communion until they have forgiven each other.
And if the person or persons on one side truly forgive the others and
desire and promise to make up for their faults, but those on the other side
refuse to forgive, the priest shall allow those who are penitent to come to
Communion, but not those who are stubborn.

In all such cases, the priest is required to notify the bishop, within
fourteen days at the most, giving the reasons for refusing Communion.

I think the key thing here is 'scandal,' which I tend to to define as someone in the pew going, 'I can't believe he/she's presenting him/herself to commonunion!' and other whispering and pointing. I've known priests who've used the disciplinary rubric, and it's never fun.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by jthomas1600

Does the pastor have an obligation to make sure the congregation doesn't partake in an unworthy manner? Does that obligation out weigh the rest of the congregations right to partake? Thoughts?

1 Corinthians 11:28 (ESV, emphasis mine)
Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by Chrysostom

(FYI, excommunication is and always has been extremely uncommon in the Roman Catholic Church. You really have to try to get excommunicated. This should tell you just how seriously Rome takes abortion.)

Actually, a Catholic would be de facto excommunicated just for voting Democrat (since the Democratic party are pro-choice). It's just that it would be a matter between the individual Catholic and God, because the Church doesn't officially issue a bull of excommunication.

[Chrysostom]

But enforcement is really, really, really lax.

(There are some pro-life Democrats, by the way. I think if I ever wanted to vote, that's where I would vote.)

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by Chrysostom

But enforcement is really, really, really lax.

Totally. I haven't even experienced much teaching on the matter when I was a Catholic, largely because the two countries in which I've been a practising Roman Catholic (Australia and Canada) have vastly different political landscapes (3 elections in 6 years, anyone?) to the US.

(There are some pro-life Democrats, by the way. I think if I ever wanted to vote, that's where I would vote.)

Totally. Except that I was sad that not many people took Ron Paul seriously in the last US election - that was one candidate I could have got behind if I were an American. I mentioned Ron Paul to my mom who was following the election intently and she was like "...never heard of him?"

But I'll shut up for fear of derailing this thread.

[nolidad]

(FYI, excommunication is and always has been extremely uncommon in the Roman Catholic Church. You really have to try to get excommunicated. This should tell you just how seriously Rome takes abortion.)

I should feel special then. I was asked to leave the RC church voluntarily or face a hearing for the purpose of excommunication based on believing and promoting hereesy within the church. I was guilty of promoting eternal security, the sufficiency of the cross for the atonement of sin, th edenial of purgatory, denying that Mary was the immaculate Conception and co redemptrix, and that prayers to teh saints were sincere but misguided and that we should pray to the Lord alone.

But that was over 30 years ago and the parish I was part of had a priest who really was a very devout catholic.

[OiBoyz]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I was asked to leave the RC church voluntarily or face a hearing for the purpose of excommunication based on believing and promoting hereesy within the church. I was guilty of promoting eternal security, the sufficiency of the cross for the atonement of sin, th edenial of purgatory, denying that Mary was the immaculate Conception and co redemptrix, and that prayers to teh saints were sincere but misguided and that we should pray to the Lord alone.

I might have been tempted to face the hearing and let them defend against such "heretical" teachings. Could have been enlightening to all concerned.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Without getting in to differences in Communion, yes this Bishop is well within biblical grounds to forbid the person involved from participating in communion. Paul made it clear that to partake with willful sin can lead to death.

yea, because we all know that Kennedy is performing the abortions himself.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Bryan

yea, because we all know that Kennedy is performing the abortions himself.

Well if a govt. official supports wiful murder by his votes in the legislatures- he ius complicit and guilty. Pilate didn't put the nails into Hesus body- but voted by his authority to sanction and order his death- making him culpable.

I might have been tempted to face the hearing and let them defend against such "heretical" teachings. Could have been enlightening to all concerned.

I was very tempted, but he monsignior told me I was just like Luther and others and they couldn't persuade trhe church, so after prayer I left quietly.

[ICTHUS]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I was very tempted, but he monsignior told me I was just like Luther and others and they couldn't persuade trhe church, so after prayer I left quietly.

You couldn't persuade the Church, but perhaps you could have persuaded individual hearts.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

You couldn't persuade the Church, but perhaps you could have persuaded individual hearts.

Possibly, but I was young in th efaith, untutored and unsure of how to proceed with this, so I chose to leave instead of making a scene. It would not have been a public trial, just in the office of the Bishop with the diocesean Inquisitor and the Parish monsigniour.

[ICTHUS]

...they had an Inquisitor?

Scary. Which diocese was this, and when?