[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by notnow92

I agree, i don't think you can decide that either. I think it takes time to understand the person and to see who they are and whether their pros weigh out their cons to the point that the cons aren't noticed anymore.

It's not about pros and cons either.

Hosea 3:1-3 (ESV)
And the LORD said to me, "Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins." So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley. And I said to her, "You must dwell as mine for many days. You shall not play the whore, or belong to another man; so will I also be to you."

I would argue that being an adulteress is about the worst con you can come up with. Cheating is even considered by some to be the only legitimate cause for divorce. Nevertheless, God commanded Hosea to take back his wife who had "played the whore," and Hosea committed himself to not forsake her for other women ("so will I also be to you") despite what she had done.

If you're just weighing pros and cons, you'd have to be insane to decide that someone's pros outweighed the cons of sleeping around while committed to you. Clearly there is more to it than that.

[notnow92]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

The Bible makes abundantly clear that feelings and sexual desire are part of love.

Song of Solomon 3:1-4; 7:1-9a (ESV)
On my bed by night I sought him whom my soul loves;
I sought him, but found him not.
I will rise now and go about the city,
in the streets and in the squares;
I will seek him whom my soul loves.
I sought him, but found him not.
The watchmen found me
as they went about in the city.
"Have you seen him whom my soul loves?" Scarcely had I passed them
when I found him whom my soul loves.
I held him, and would not let him go
until I had brought him into my mother’s house,
and into the chamber of her who conceived me.

How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O noble daughter!
Your rounded thighs are like jewels,
the work of a master hand.
Your navel is a rounded bowl
that never lacks mixed wine.
Your belly is a heap of wheat,
encircled with lilies.
Your two breasts are like two fawns,
twins of a gazelle.
Your neck is like an ivory tower. Your eyes are pools in Heshbon,
by the gate of Bath-rabbim.
Your nose is like a tower of Lebanon,
which looks toward Damascus.
Your head crowns you like Carmel,
and your flowing locks are like purple;
a king is held captive in the tresses.

How beautiful and pleasant you are,
O loved one, with all your delights!
Your stature is like a palm tree,
and your breasts are like its clusters.
I say I will climb the palm tree
and lay hold of its fruit.
Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine,
and the scent of your breath like apples,
and your mouth like the best wine.

I know that feelings and sexual desire are part of love.
I like that scripture, the whole poetic passage of Solomon proclaiming to his lover how he admires and adores and loves her body.
I would think though, that you love the body after the person (so to speak). You fall in love with the person and then you and who ever get to experience love on another level. You wouldn't follow your sexual desires first to find the feelings. You get to know the person and feelings are created. The sexual desire is always there but you should only go so far with that until you are married.

[DaGeek]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

I don't see how you could conceivably decide you wanted to be with someone for the rest of your life in a week. I knew my girlfriend for years as a friend and then dated her for two more before I knew for sure... and we're still just bf/gf, not engaged or married.

That said, however, it is possible, but only in major exceptions, like my parents. They were engaged 1.5wks after meeting, married a month or so later, and they've been married almost twenty-three years, and they definitely love each other.


So... Yeah, it's possible, but they both freely admit the hand of God in it and that it wasn't at all the norm .

I think that, since true love is a decision and an action, if one finds the right person and has the right mindset, the decision could come quickly.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by notnow92

I guess I just feel that people over use the term to where it doesn't mean as much as it should.

I think it is better to think of the use of the term "love" as being more or less complete not more or less meaningful. I can assure you, having experienced it for myself, that when you find out someone likes you, it means a lot! That isn't all there is to love, but--this is vital--love must include that. Feelings on their own are not love, but love cannot be separated from feelings. The love portrayed in Song of Solomon and Hosea (read how God describes his love for Israel) is undeniably one of passion and feelings. When someone expresses feelings as love, they are expressing legitimate and Biblical love. When a 13-year old girl writes a boy's name over and over next to hers on her notebook, she is expressing legitimate and Biblical love. Song of Solomon very much expresses a love of infatuation (the girl speaking says she wakes up in the night and her man isn't there, so she gets up and runs through the city looking for him; talk about sappy).

I want to be perfectly clear though that this infatuation and feelings-based love is not all there is to love. There is more, but the feelings are still part of love.

It is also important to note that the expression of love permitted by the Bible is limited in some ways. There is a time and a place for the feelings of love to be fully expressed (by which I mean sex). That time and place is marriage. However, this does not mean that no feelings should be expressed before marriage.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by notnow92

I know that feelings and sexual desire are part of love.
I like that scripture, the whole poetic passage of Solomon proclaiming to his lover how he admires and adores and loves her body.
I would think though, that you love the body after the person (so to speak). You fall in love with the person and then you and who ever get to experience love on another level. You wouldn't follow your sexual desires first to find the feelings. You get to know the person and feelings are created. The sexual desire is always there but you should only go so far with that until you are married.

Definitely. I'm not trying to say you should rush into sex and other physical and emotional expressions of love right away. I'm speaking more of the feelings behind that passage in Song of Solomon. As you say, the feelings are created as you get to know the person (and sometimes even before you know them; see crushes). What I'm trying to say is that these feelings are a legitimate expression of love, and our definition of love should include them.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by DaGeek

That said, however, it is possible, but only in major exceptions, like my parents. They were engaged 1.5wks after meeting, married a month or so later, and they've been married almost twenty-three years, and they definitely love each other.


So... Yeah, it's possible, but they both freely admit the hand of God in it and that it wasn't at all the norm .

And I think it's crucial to recognize the God aspect of this. From a purely human standpoint, I still maintain that deciding your want to spend the rest of your life with someone after knowing them for only a week is crazy. That is not to say, however, that if you make that decision anyway, it can't be right. Clearly for your parents, it was the right decision, even though it is equally clear that they didn't know everything that one would want to know in making such a decision.

[DaGeek]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

And I think it's crucial to recognize the God aspect of this. From a purely human standpoint, I still maintain that deciding your want to spend the rest of your life with someone after knowing them for only a week is crazy. That is not to say, however, that if you make that decision anyway, it can't be right. Clearly for your parents, it was the right decision, even though it is equally clear that they didn't know everything that one would want to know in making such a decision.

Absolutely agreed for 95-99% of the time (barring your God aspect comment; that I agree with all the time) . I both can and can't imagine marrying someone after a few weeks. If I found the right person and knew God's hand was in it, I'd be fine with it; however, without that... No way!

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by notnow92

I mean love as in even though a person has faults you would still want to be with them for the rest of your life.

I don't think so. Here is why:

I don't think in any given week we really know a person. I know that for me anyways, within the first week, most people's annoying quirks and such are just popping up on our radar.

I think it can work, but I think it is more of a proof that love is a choice as much as a feeling.

I have an uncle who moved in with his girlfriend after the first date (3 days after meeting) and got married 8 days after meeting. They are still together. Was it wise? No. Was it godly? No. Did it work out just great 30 years later? Yes.

I married my first girlfriend. 5 years after marriage, and over a decade after meeting we are still sickeningly in love to those around us. But these are exceptions. Most people don't marry someone after 8 days of meeting them, or marry their first girlfriend. But some people just seem to make all manner of things work. That does not mean they will work for you.

I think to really know someone well enough to actually, really KNOW that you want to spend the rest of your life takes around a year. I have my reasons for that figure, but it is pretty accurate to me that that is how long it really takes to get to know someone.

I also know I would not trust my feelings if I KNEW God was in the relationship. Call me jaded, but I have had enough friends had that happen, who were probably more godly than I, and in the end, they got married, and their wife cheated and left them, or the relationship exploded before that point. Personally, I am more comfortable with dice than I am trusting my feelings. My feelings have a vested interest, and thus can convince me that my desires are God's, rather than the other way around. And I am not joking about dice and flipping coins. Oddly enough, that is the ancient method God's will was determined was with lots and Urim and Thumim. So if we are going to try to divine the will of God... that would be the most biblical method. That and wisdom. Which is what I really suggest. But biblically, if you want to inquire of the Lord, praying and getting a feeling would most likely be classed as pagan divination...

[notnow92]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

It's not about pros and cons either.

Sure it is. Before you fall in love with someone, or get married to someone, you find your pros and cons, your likes and dislikes. Everyone is going to have at least one thing that might annoy the other person. But they also might a a great quality that you really like about them. Then you choose whether you can stand that annoying part of them, if you can't then you stop dating them; even if you really like their good qualities, you might not be able to live with things that annoy you. And that is a choice, you can choose to get over it and keep them in your life or not. But alot of things are based on that. It's who the person is.

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Hosea 3:1-3 (ESV)
And the LORD said to me, "Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins." So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley. And I said to her, "You must dwell as mine for many days. You shall not play the whore, or belong to another man; so will I also be to you."

I would argue that being an adulteress is about the worst con you can come up with. Cheating is even considered by some to be the only legitimate cause for divorce. Nevertheless, God commanded Hosea to take back his wife who had "played the whore," and Hosea committed himself to not forsake her for other women ("so will I also be to you") despite what she had done.

If you're just weighing pros and cons, you'd have to be insane to decide that someone's pros outweighed the cons of sleeping around while committed to you. Clearly there is more to it than that.

Well maybe he was insane.. just kidding. I don't think that Hosea would've choosen to be with her if God hadn't commanded him to take her back. Who would want an unfaithfull spouse? That con, people don't want. But Hosea trusted God and did what He wanted.

[notnow92]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I don't think so. Here is why:

I don't think in any given week we really know a person. I know that for me anyways, within the first week, most people's annoying quirks and such are just popping up on our radar.

I think it can work, but I think it is more of a proof that love is a choice as much as a feeling.

I don't think so either. I think people can make it work if they really want to but nobody really knows a person within a week. Soo i agree.

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Personally, I am more comfortable with dice than I am trusting my feelings. My feelings have a vested interest, and thus can convince me that my desires are God's, rather than the other way around. And I am not joking about dice and flipping coins. Oddly enough, that is the ancient method God's will was determined was with lots and Urim and Thumim. So if we are going to try to divine the will of God... that would be the most biblical method. That and wisdom. Which is what I really suggest. But biblically, if you want to inquire of the Lord, praying and getting a feeling would most likely be classed as pagan divination...

This. This times about a billion, and applied to decisions of all kinds, not just regarding romance.

It's funny you should actually mention the method of casting lots, as it was also mentioned in a book I was reading recently by a professor at Multnomah Bible College. I found it interesting, considering the fact that in churches I've attended the idea of 'casting lots' was used for demonizing gambling.... while it was a common occurrence for decisions to be made based on someone 'feeling God leading them to do something.'

Decision Making and the Will of God by Garry Friesen was the name of the book....

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Mullet

This. This times about a billion, and applied to decisions of all kinds, not just regarding romance.

It's funny you should actually mention the method of casting lots, as it was also mentioned in a book I was reading recently by a professor at Multnomah Bible College. I found it interesting, considering the fact that in churches I've attended the idea of 'casting lots' was used for demonizing gambling.... while it was a common occurrence for decisions to be made based on someone 'feeling God leading them to do something.'

Decision Making and the Will of God by Garry Friesen was the name of the book....

Oddly, a paper on Baalam and reading the Joseph story and starting to look into which forms of divination were kosher is how I came to this conclusion. That and some discussions with a prof who will remain nameless.

It seems that what is wrong with divination is not that it is divination, but rather certain methods have a human making the interpretation. Those are banned outright, but those, such as lots, which are cast into the lap and there every decision is from Yahweh, seem to be fine. Jacob Milgrom's commentary on Numbers was very intriguing about this. (Milgrom is Jewish, not a believer)

I found it very helpful, particular the appendixes on the Baalam story.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by notnow92

Sure it is. Before you fall in love with someone, or get married to someone, you find your pros and cons, your likes and dislikes. Everyone is going to have at least one thing that might annoy the other person. But they also might a a great quality that you really like about them. Then you choose whether you can stand that annoying part of them, if you can't then you stop dating them; even if you really like their good qualities, you might not be able to live with things that annoy you. And that is a choice, you can choose to get over it and keep them in your life or not. But alot of things are based on that. It's who the person is.

Well maybe he was insane.. just kidding. I don't think that Hosea would've choosen to be with her if God hadn't commanded him to take her back. Who would want an unfaithfull spouse? That con, people don't want. But Hosea trusted God and did what He wanted.

I think what Hosea shows us is that you can choose to get over anything. No one wants their spouse to be unfaithful, but that does not mean you cannot want an unfaithful spouse. (Now I am just arguing semantics, but to make a point.) To clarify, no one wants their spouse to become unfaithful, but someone can still want their spouse even if they do become an unfaithful spouse. An unfaithful person can still be wanted as a spouse. Hosea shows us this.

I don't think Hosea was insane, and whether he was just doing it because God commanded him to or not, I think Hosea truly loved Gomer. As I said, you should read how God describes his passion for his people. It is much more intense than Song of Solomon or Hosea's passion for Gomer.

Hosea 2:14-20 (ESV)
"Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
and bring her into the wilderness,
and speak tenderly to her.
And there I will give her her vineyards
and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth,
as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt.

"And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.' For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD.

The parallelism between God's love for his people and a husband for his wife is firmly established in Scripture. God commands Hosea to marry Gomer and then buy her back after she cheated on him precisely to show how he loves his people. Paul says in Ephesians that a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church.

God has "gotten over" more than any of us can even imagine, and that is our example.

More:

Psalm 130:3 (ESV)
If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities,
O Lord, who could stand?

1 Corinthians 13:5b (NLT)
[Love] is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.

Again, the parallel between God's love and the love we should have is clear. Love forgives. Love "gets over" things.

I'm not saying that you should marry someone even if they drive you crazy all the time and you barely like anything about them. I'm saying that if your mindset is one of weighing pros against cons and deciding what you (implicitally under your own power) can and can't live with, if your mindset is that marriage is what you do when you find someone whose good outweighs their bad, if your mindset is that you can't commit to someone fully until you find out their annoying traits because you may not be able to live with them--if that is your mindset, then you are doing it horribly wrong.

I learn new things about my girlfriend all the time, and I've known her for years. I have no doubt that after we are married, I will continue to learn new things about her. Some of those will be awesome, some of them will be annoying. If I can't commit right now, before I learn those things, that no matter what they are, I will love her (and be in love with her) anyway, then we have no hope as a couple.

[notnow92]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

I think what Hosea shows us is that you can choose to get over anything. No one wants their spouse to be unfaithful, but that does not mean you cannot want an unfaithful spouse. (Now I am just arguing semantics, but to make a point.) To clarify, no one wants their spouse to become unfaithful, but someone can still want their spouse even if they do become an unfaithful spouse. An unfaithful person can still be wanted as a spouse. Hosea shows us this.

I don't think Hosea was insane, and whether he was just doing it because God commanded him to or not, I think Hosea truly loved Gomer. As I said, you should read how God describes his passion for his people. It is much more intense than Song of Solomon or Hosea's passion for Gomer.

Hosea 2:14-20 (ESV)
"Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
and bring her into the wilderness,
and speak tenderly to her.
And there I will give her her vineyards
and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth,
as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt.

"And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.' For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD.

The parallelism between God's love for his people and a husband for his wife is firmly established in Scripture. God commands Hosea to marry Gomer and then buy her back after she cheated on him precisely to show how he loves his people. Paul says in Ephesians that a man should love his wife as Christ loved the church.

God has "gotten over" more than any of us can even imagine, and that is our example.

More:

Psalm 130:3 (ESV)
If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities,
O Lord, who could stand?

1 Corinthians 13:5b (NLT)
[Love] is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.

Again, the parallel between God's love and the love we should have is clear. Love forgives. Love "gets over" things.

I'm not saying that you should marry someone even if they drive you crazy all the time and you barely like anything about them. I'm saying that if your mindset is one of weighing pros against cons and deciding what you (implicitally under your own power) can and can't live with, if your mindset is that marriage is what you do when you find someone whose good outweighs their bad, if your mindset is that you can't commit to someone fully until you find out their annoying traits because you may not be able to live with them--if that is your mindset, then you are doing it horribly wrong.

I learn new things about my girlfriend all the time, and I've known her for years. I have no doubt that after we are married, I will continue to learn new things about her. Some of those will be awesome, some of them will be annoying. If I can't commit right now, before I learn those things, that no matter what they are, I will love her (and be in love with her) anyway, then we have no hope as a couple.

Yeah, i agree that you can choose to get over things, and i agree that someone can want to be with their spouse even if their spouse is unfaithful. Haha no that isn't my mind set. You can commit to someone without knowing all their traits. Their traits show up throughout the whole relationship. You commit to that person and if it happens that some annoying trait comes along that you don't think you can handle, you keep committing and you move past it, unless you decide that you just don't want to put forth the effort to make things work; then your relationship is over.

[bobthecockroach]

If you can still decide that you don't want to put forth the effort, then you aren't fully committed.