Market Research: Help us out.

Ax · 11-09-2009, 08:09 PM

So, as a couple of you know, RubberChipmunk and I have been working on an arduous task to design and build amplifiers for the good of the common man. We're starting a business under the name Necropolis Amplifiers. We have a few questions to pose to the general mass of CGRers, as Eric and my preferences are not exactly in line with the common guitarist's.

We are working on our design and we came to a few questions we'd like to pose to you guys.

Are effects loops a dire necessity in a low wattage amplifier? Would it make or brake an amp for you?

The idea of an effects loop is that modulation effects sound better after distortion, however, in this amp you're probably going to be getting a lot of power amp distortion if you're using a lot of gain, as it it low wattage, effectively making it, from our viewpoint useless.

So we have a few options:

1: Make what was our single ended amp into a push pull amp that would be less gainy on the power side. Thus also making the amp less dynamic. And due to our design, less tonal control.

2: Leave it out all together. Same dynamic amp with near perfect tonal control. More power amp distortion

3: Still have it, between the pre and the power because you want it there. No real tradeoff, it's just kinda useless.

RubberChipmunk · 11-09-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ax

So, as a couple of you know, RubberChipmunk and I have been working on an arduous task to design and build amplifiers for the good of the common man. We're starting a business under the name Necropolis Amplifiers. We have a few questions to pose to the general mass of CGRers, as Eric and my preferences are not exactly in line with the common guitarist's.

We are working on our design and we came to a few questions we'd like to pose to you guys.

Are effects loops a dire necessity in a low wattage amplifier? Would it make or brake an amp for you?

The idea of an effects loop is that modulation effects sound better after distortion, however, in this amp you're probably going to be getting a lot of power amp distortion if you're using a lot of gain, as it it low wattage, effectively making it, from our viewpoint useless.

So we have a few options:

1: Make what was our single ended amp into a push pull amp that would be less gainy on the power side. Thus also making the amp less dynamic. And due to our design, less tonal control.

2: Leave it out all together. Same dynamic amp with near perfect tonal control. More power amp distortion

3: Still have it, between the pre and the power because you want it there. No real tradeoff, it's just kinda useless.

Just so everyone is clear, if you haven't been keeping up with CPF happenings, I am RubberChipmunk.

I'd like to clarify on some of the implications of each option.

If we go with Push-pull Class A (option 1), you will not be able to mix and match two different output tubes. There will also be more clean headroom, but as a tradeoff it sounds more like a higher wattage amp than a smaller class-a amp, due to the cancellation of even-order harmonics push-pull operation causes. You'd have to turn it all the way up to get power amp distortion.

If we go with Single-ended Class A (option 2), it will be in parallel. Two tubes rather than one. It will also be wired so that you can use two different output tubes, or two of the same. Nearly anything octal, like 6V6, 6L6, 6K6 (just for you Bisspee), KT66, and EL34, as well as EL84's through THD YellowJackets or similar adapters.

If we go with option 3, then the effects loop will actually have a purpose as long as the volume is kept lower. When you get that power amp distortion, its the same as putting your time/modulation effects between a distortion pedal and your preamp, and it effectively treats the preamp like just another gain effect before the amp.

metropolis4 · 11-09-2009, 08:44 PM

I vote that FX loops really aren't necessary or useful in this type of amp and just leave it out and go for class A operation. Keep it simple and pure. I think thats the way to go for low powered amps. Besides, it's cooler to run your good delays in front of a dirty amp! Seriously, if someone wants pristine, clean delay tones then a low wattage class A amp is a stupid option anyway. I say build to the strengths of this type of amp rather than try to make it cover everything

Cathode biasing? SS rectifier? What else are you looking at here?

**thesteve** · 11-09-2009, 08:46 PM

Have you guys looked at what other manufacturers making amps with similar wattage specs have done?

Ax · 11-09-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metropolis4

I vote that FX loops really aren't necessary or useful in this type of amp and just leave it out and go for class A operation. Keep it simple and pure. I think thats the way to go for low powered amps. Besides, it's cooler to run your good delays in front of a dirty amp! Seriously, if someone wants pristine, clean delay tones then a low wattage class A amp is a stupid option anyway. I say build to the strengths of this type of amp rather than try to make it cover everything

Cathode biasing? SS rectifier? What else are you looking at here?

Cathode biasing, tube recto. 15 watts with half power switch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve

Have you guys looked at what other manufacturers making amps with similar wattage specs have done?

Most forego the fx loop. I always wondered if that was to keep costs down or if there was a reason.

**bread man** · 11-09-2009, 11:21 PM

I'll echo metropolis. Personally, I don't really like effects loops and I always run my effects into the front of the amp. FWIW I use a lot of delays and reverbs into a Pro Jr, but I do the same thing when I borrow a friend's 30 watt tube amp and use both channels.

dtaylorl · 11-09-2009, 11:23 PM

Well, I really don't know enough about these things to put in a vote, although option 2 does seem to make the most sense. I am really intrigued by what you are doing though; when do you expect these amps will start to be available?

Ax · 11-09-2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtaylorl

Well, I really don't know enough about these things to put in a vote, although option 2 does seem to make the most sense. I am really intrigued by what you are doing though; when do you expect these amps will start to be available?

Hopefully by second week in Dec.

**thesteve** · 11-09-2009, 11:37 PM

From looking at option 1 (at least how Eric describes), it seems very similar to the THD BiValve, which does have an effects loop.

I would go on to add that if I was in the market for a low wattage amp, the availability of an effects loop would not make/break the decision for me

Ax · 11-09-2009, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve

From looking at option 1 (at least how Eric describes), it seems very similar to the THD BiValve, which does have an effects loop.

I would go on to add that if I was in the market for a low wattage amp, the availability of an effects loop would not make/break the decision for me

His option 1 is my option 2 and vise versa.

relient nelson · 11-10-2009, 12:15 AM

I would say just leave the effects loop out. I also like running my delays and mods into a dirty amp.

Almost Enough · 11-10-2009, 03:28 AM

Leave it out and do it right.

Are you guys planning on only making one amplifier, or a few different ones?

Ax · 11-10-2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almost Enough

Leave it out and do it right.

Are you guys planning on only making one amplifier, or a few different ones?

Few different ones. This is going to be our first and only for a little while. Then we'll be making a 4 channel 100 Watt High Gain monstrosity called the Natural Disaster, and from there, Bass amps and possibly a few boutique SS amps.