[Bryan]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I am a little confused. I just don't understand how celibacy necessitates a life that is "lonely, depressed, outcast and exiled from the church"???

Leboman addressed the lonely part pretty well. And my loneliness and struggle has left me depressed many times.

As far as outcast and exiled from the church, let me tell you a story. I used to teach a boys Sunday school class when I was in Colorado. When some learned that I was gay, even though at the time I was celibate, they feared me teaching their sons. They were afraid I would molest them and abuse them. Even though there was no history in my life to indicate this would happen (and those that do such horrible things are often closeted homosexuals not those who are out), I was asked to stop teaching Sunday school. I was then asked to step down from my role as worship leader because I was gay, even though I was celibate at that point and not involved in any sexual relationship.

The church can't handle gays, even the celibate ones.

Isaac put it well:

If you say in a small group 'I struggle with lusting after my neighbor's wife,' no one is going to recoil from a hug because they think you're trying to feel them up. No one gets nervous in the church changing room. No one looks at you strange when you show up, alone, at the high school foot ball game when you're really there to support that 15 yr old freshman who's dressing out for the first time. You don't have to lie to your parents or people closest to you for years.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I agree. But I have friends, family, Church, etc. While a wife is much, much more, I wouldn't regard myself as lonely, depressed, and an outcast before I got married. I think that there has to be some middle ground between yearning for the companionship that a partner brings and being "lonely, depressed, and an outcast". I mean, I did spend 10+ years single before I got married (I didn't really date at all) and I just don't see it.

you're not gay. You don't live with a stigma like I do. It's just not the same.

also, how old are you? how old were you when you got married? or when you and your wife started dating? It was easier in highschool because a lot of people are single. It gets more and more difficult the older you get. And when your friends are all getting married or seriously involved with someone else, it gets even harder. You become the 3rd/5th wheel. People invite you to get-togethers at their homes, but when you are the only single person there, it isn't easy. Add to it that you are gay on top of all that and given the cold shoulder by those closest to you because of it, and it is crushing.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I agree. But I have friends, family, Church, etc. While a wife is much, much more, I wouldn't regard myself as lonely, depressed, and an outcast before I got married. I think that there has to be some middle ground between yearning for the companionship that a partner brings and being "lonely, depressed, and an outcast". I mean, I did spend 10+ years single before I got married (I didn't really date at all) and I just don't see it.

I am more of that since my marriage than in my undergrad college years in all honesty.In fact I feel that way at seminary.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Bryan

you're not gay. You don't live with a stigma like I do. It's just not the same.

How do you know that he does not have a stigma? You don't. In southern california, being gay is not a stigma. Being married under 30 gets you mocked though.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

How do you know that he does not have a stigma? You don't. In southern california, being gay is not a stigma. Being married under 30 gets you mocked though.

then maybe I should move to SoCal

[Role Modlin]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I agree. But I have friends, family, Church, etc. While a wife is much, much more, I wouldn't regard myself as lonely, depressed, and an outcast before I got married. I think that there has to be some middle ground between yearning for the companionship that a partner brings and being "lonely, depressed, and an outcast". I mean, I did spend 10+ years single before I got married (I didn't really date at all) and I just don't see it.

I'm simply trying to understand the issue. Your experience may be different but I speak from experience when I say that I felt totally lonely (to the point of being depressed) before I got married. I'm not saying that those feelings were justified, but they were very real.

[tlj009]

As far as outcast and exiled from the church, let me tell you a story. I used to teach a boys Sunday school class when I was in Colorado. When some learned that I was gay, even though at the time I was celibate, they feared me teaching their sons. They were afraid I would molest them and abuse them. Even though there was no history in my life to indicate this would happen (and those that do such horrible things are often closeted homosexuals not those who are out), I was asked to stop teaching Sunday school. I was then asked to step down from my role as worship leader because I was gay, even though I was celibate at that point and not involved in any sexual relationship.

And if the teacher was a drunk or had a porn addiction, he would be asked to step down. My point is that you can be shunned for any number of things. But there is no reason for anyone to even know as long as you keep it under control. And if you fail, then there are always consequences. If you long for support from others sharing your particular struggle, surely you will be able to find it. I mean I read earlier in this thread where there is already a gay Christian community.

The church can't handle gays, even the celibate ones.

Isaac put it well:

The Church is very, very good. But it in no way takes responsibility away from the individual. Just like having everyone that I know having sex outside of marriage didn't resolve me of the responsibility to refrain from it.

you're not gay. You don't live with a stigma like I do. It's just not the same.

I am sure that it is not the same. I guess that my personality just doesn't allow for me to care about "stigmas" very much. I learned at a very young age to be independent and not really care what other people think. I won't go into the different "stigmas" that I have dealt with over the years, but there have been several. But like I said, I just don't get it. Maybe it is just my personality or something else, but I simply don't get the "stigma" aspect. Also, who will even know to place that stigma on you unless you advertise it in some way?

also, how old are you? how old were you when you got married? or when you and your wife started dating? It was easier in highschool because a lot of people are single. It gets more and more difficult the older you get. And when your friends are all getting married or seriously involved with someone else, it gets even harder. You become the 3rd/5th wheel. People invite you to get-togethers at their homes, but when you are the only single person there, it isn't easy. Add to it that you are gay on top of all that and given the cold shoulder by those closest to you because of it, and it is crushing.

I am sure that it is easier some times rather than others, but I simply can't understand this argument. I know that most people have trouble with this, but I have always walked into things as if right and wrong are set in stone. Other people's actions don't change what is right or wrong in a particular situation. I also don't know worry about picking who is or isn't "closest to" me. They either are or aren't. Really, I just don't get it.

And I am 29. I got married at 24 after about 6 months of dating. I didn't date before that.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by Bryan

yes, if homosexual sex is a sin in all cases, then you are right. But here is where I am coming from.

For the last 20 years I have struggled with this. I have asked God on countless occasions to deliver me from this burden. At the same time, I have never felt guilty about it. I have prayed for the conviction that it is wrong if it truly is. Why hasn't God convicted me of this sin and why hasn't he delivered me from it? I have spent many years angry at God. He has it within his power to deliver me. Hell he has it in his power to completely wipe sin from the face of the earth. While I think that it is most likely that the Bible does teach it as a sin, I don't believe it. And so this struggle has left me alone, miserable, depressed and even provoked thoughts of suicide at times. And after 20 years of prayer, counseling, and even some fasting, I'm fed up. I'm done with fighting it. So I realized that there were three possible options here.
1. It is a sin and I should not engage in homosexual acts.
2. God doesn't exist.
3. It isn't a sin and our understanding of the Bible is flawed.

My response to each of these options:
1. God is a vindictive S.O.B. who has cursed me with this, refuses to deliver me from it, and at the same time threatens me with damnation.
2. I wish I could believe God doesn't exist. As much as it would make my life easier, I can't ignore the reality of God.
3. This is the only option that I see that is consistent with the character of God, my understanding of who I am, and my desire to not spend the rest of my life alone and miserable.

So I pick option 3. If I'm wrong, I hope that God forgives me one day if option 1 is true. If option 2 is true, it won't matter anyway. But if I must spend the rest of my life lonely, depressed, outcast and exiled from the church because it is a sin and God won't deliver me, I'd rather my life come to an end now and not 50 years from now.

It took me a long time to arrive at that conclusion. I am at peace with it and who I am.

You're at peace with the fact that your lifestyle is contrary to what you think the Bible teaches? I'm not trying to attack you at all, but I find that very troubling. You admit that you think the Bible teaches that homosexual sex is a sin, but you don't believe it?

If you've abandoned what you think the Bible teaches because it doesn't fit with your concept of who God is, then you've set yourself up as a standard over and above the Bible. This is far more troubling to me than homosexuality itself, because you're believing in a God that isn't biblical. Instead, because you personally have struggled with a very difficult issue (and have obviously received little to no support from your local church congregation), you have a concept of God that fits your personal situation.

The problem with this view of God is that it can very subtly tweak your worldview to the point that all sorts of behaviors can be excused. At the risk of getting too personal, I have dealt with a major issue with lust and masturbation. The danger for me was far greater when the sin became commonplace than when I felt guilty and shameful. When I felt guilty, I went to God and pleaded for his forgiveness and grace. When I became comfortable with the idea that my lustful view of women was natural and that masturbation was perfectly natural for me (an idea that received plenty of support from many people on the internet), that was when I started to believe that God would not see this behavior as sinful, that lust and masturbation was completely normal, natural, and part of how God made me.

My fear is that the current culture has worked so hard to make homosexuality an accepted part of society, similar to how pornography, lust, and masturbation have become increasingly accepted with the rise in internet use. I fear that this culture shift has impacted how people interpret scripture, to the point that we view the Bible through the lens of modern society and the current acceptance of acts that are, biblically, sinful.

One specific example of this that I'm seeing in this thread is the idea that something is only sinful if it does harm to another. This is a very modern view, not a biblical one.

[Guitarman121319]

Originally Posted by Bryan

Hell he has it in his power to completely wipe sin from the face of the earth.

Bryan,

God could stop evil, but if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? Where do we stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we we have to be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated, because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated, but thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin.

Brings me to point number two. If you want God to truly save you from sexual sin you have to be willing to go through the process. I was like Skeeter with lust. I an I'm pretty sure Skeeter did not wake up one morning without lustful thoughts. If you want to be delivered try this:

1.) Admit what your doing is a sin.
2.) Explain to God that you want to change.
3.) (Most important) Claim Jesus, cling to the cross, Hold fast to the bible's teachings. Love God with all your heart. DO NOT GIVE UP. YOU WILL BE HEALED. Bryan, you will be healed in the name of Jesus. I claim it. Do you?

In the power of Jesus, Jamey

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Guitarman121319

Bryan,

God could stop evil, but if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? Where do we stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we we have to be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated, because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated, but thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin.

Brings me to point number two. If you want God to truly save you from sexual sin you have to be willing to go through the process. I was like Skeeter with lust. I an I'm pretty sure Skeeter did not wake up one morning without lustful thoughts. If you want to be delivered try this:

1.) Admit what your doing is a sin.
2.) Explain to God that you want to change.
3.) (Most important) Claim Jesus, cling to the cross, Hold fast to the bible's teachings. Love God with all your heart. DO NOT GIVE UP. YOU WILL BE HEALED. Bryan, you will be healed in the name of Jesus. I claim it. Do you?

In the power of Jesus, Jamey

Jamey, in the post you quoted, Bryan said he's been struggling with this since before you were born. It rings rather hollow when you tell someone twice your age that if they do three things their 20 year struggle will disappear.

Second, I'm not aware of a passage in the Bible which promises us that we will be delivered from our temptation in this life time. I see Paul claiming to be the worst of sinners. I see Paul saying in Romans 7 that he keeps doing things he hates and doesn't do that which he loves.

[Guitarman121319]

Originally Posted by Sean

Jamey, in the post you quoted, Bryan said he's been struggling with this since before you were born. It rings rather hollow when you tell someone twice your age that if they do three things their 20 year struggle will disappear.

Well no, I said try the three things and he will see improvement if he sticks it out and does not give up. It might sound hollow, but just because I am young does not mean I can't be right. (I do think that if you want to be healed you have to Admit what your doing is a sin, repent and turn away from sin, and trust in Jesus) The bible says not to let people look down on me because I am young but set an example in life, speech, love, faith and in purity. (1 Timothy 4:12)

Second, I'm not aware of a passage in the Bible which promises us that we will be delivered from our temptation in this life time. I see Paul claiming to be the worst of sinners. I see Paul saying in Romans 7 that he keeps doing things he hates and doesn't do that which he loves.

I never said the bible says that. I kinda mixed in a prayer with my post.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by Guitarman121319

Well no, I said try the three things and he will see improvement if he sticks it out and does not give up. It might sound hollow, but just because I am young does not mean I can't be right. (I do think that if you want to be healed you have to Admit what your doing is a sin, repent and turn away from sin, and trust in Jesus) The bible says not to let people look down on me because I am young but set an example in life, speech, love, faith and in purity. (1 Timothy 4:12)

I never said the bible says that. I kinda mixed in a prayer with my post.

Honestly, you're not helping this discussion at all. I'm not looking down on you, but I am disagreeing with you. If you're going to post three steps to becoming free from sin, you better be able to back up those steps with scripture, especially if you're posting them in the Theology forum. I want to emphasize that: this is the Theology forum, not Advice.

[Guitarman121319]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

Honestly, you're not helping this discussion at all. I'm not looking down on you, but I am disagreeing with you. If you're going to post three steps to becoming free from sin, you better be able to back up those steps with scripture, especially if you're posting them in the Theology forum. I want to emphasize that: this is the Theology forum, not Advice.

Okay, I am done here.

[mulletman]

Originally Posted by Guitarman121319

Well no, I said try the three things and he will see improvement if he sticks it out and does not give up. It might sound hollow, but just because I am young does not mean I can't be right. (I do think that if you want to be healed you have to Admit what your doing is a sin, repent and turn away from sin, and trust in Jesus) The bible says not to let people look down on me because I am young but set an example in life, speech, love, faith and in purity. (1 Timothy 4:12)

From reading his posts, I was quite clearly under the impression that he had done those things....

Originally Posted by Guitarman121319

I never said the bible says that. I kinda mixed in a prayer with my post.

You also declared that he would be 'healed.' I hate to break it to you, but sometimes God doesn't heal people. A friend's mother had cancer. We all prayed and knew that God could heal her. We all trusted, and had faith. Full churches of people prayed. She died. Was it because we didn't 'truly believe' that she would be healed? No. Was it because we didn't trust? No. Why wasn't she healed? I don't know. Sometimes you don't get what you ask for, and you don't get to know why. Sometimes after seeing that you are not being supernaturally healed, you have to sit, know that God is sovereign, know His sovereign will is perfect, and submit to Him.

Consider Ezekiel. A man, and a prophet. Someone whom God spoke with directly, and who spoke the word of God to men. To make His point more clear, God killed Ezekiel's wife. And this was not even for the purpose of making His point clear to Ezekiel! It was for the others around him! And think of Ezekiel's wife. A woman. A human in her own right. Struck dead by God for the reason of making a point. She did not bring that upon herself by any of her own actions.

Sometimes, God's sovereign will includes people becoming the proverbial 'shipwreck,' who's sole purpose is to serve as a warning to others.

[Adam K]

I'm seeing the same problem coming up in each argument. A focus on self-importance. If I have this "natural" struggle and God won't fix it, then He doesn't really care for me; basically: "I am of ultimate importance". While we are "important" in God's eyes, we mean it in a different (and much bigger) sense.

Individualism has become so ingrained within our culture that any and every ideal that contradicts it seems ultimately depressing, no matter how true it may be. "Wait, are you saying maybe I don't matter as much as I think I'm supposed to!?", "Are you saying that the problems I have and the struggles I have are much bigger and beyond me and my life?".

In other words our own individual lives are held up as meta-narratives rather than being seen as simply narratives of a much more important meta-narrative. Thus certain struggles, such as I believe about homosexuality, require bigger and more complex solutions than can be provided within a context that sees it as merely an individual problem. It is a multi-generational, societal and communal problem.