[TravisR]

Thrash, in each of the examples you provided, you are only trying to rationalize the sin away. I have not approached homosexuality through rationalizing it away by saying that it doesn't hurt anybody and therefore isn't a sin. I take the issue head on by tackling the translation of scripture, the understanding we have of the role of the old law under the new covenant, and the ultimate law to "love your neighbor as yourself." I would argue that every other thing on that list in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 in some way violates the law to love your neighbor as yourself or to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. I'm not necessarily prepared to offer the best arguments for each instance, but off the top of my head I could say that drunkenness harms the body and in that way could be an offense to God as our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that when you are incapacitated in that way, you don't have the best control of your actions which could lead to other sin... prostitution reflects a devaluing of sex, involves objectifying other people (not really loving them), etc., and you clearly would not slander against or murder someone if you truly loved them as yourself! When you start talking about getting into a time machine and going to kill Hitler... then you know you're really just playing silly word games.

In any case, I can't afford to write any more right now and shouldn't be able to at least until tomorrow. I've got an important paper that I need to be writing which I have been neglecting for interest in this thread (and Facebook. :P)

Talk to you soon.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Bryan

since Jesus said "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."

That's a command we must follow, but that doesn't mean it's the foundation for right and wrong.

If that were the case then sin would be primarily rebellion against other people rather than rebellion against God. It also leaves out the option that there are acts which rebel against God, but are NOT unloving towards our neighbor.

[redbaron]

Originally Posted by TravisR

My point there was simply to get people thinking about what they expect from the gay community. Unfortunately, I think that in the backs of our minds, we do think "I'm glad that's not my issue." Out of mind, out of sight, right? I think the church itself is pretty divided and somewhat unorganized in how they feel about homosexuality. We've got churches like the MCC, the Episcopal church, Lutherans, etc. who are pretty accepting and then the majority of other churches which are less accepting to varying degrees. Even within churches there can be a wide range of opinions. I've met people who strongly advocate ex-gay ministries and preach "deliverance" from homosexuality while I've met others who have spent upwards of 10 years in ex-gay ministry and have been deeply hurt by the church. Others are tolerant of homosexuality itself but not in homosexual behavior. I assume these advocate either celibacy or mixed-orientation marriages. Still others condemn even the state of being a homosexual as something that is somehow sick, terrible wrong, unnatural, etc. But when all is said and done, if you're not gay... why should this be of major concern to you? That's a terrible line of thought and I don't feel that it is at all justified, but all-too many Christians are willing to ignore this issue or not give it the study that it deserves. Shouldn't it break our hearts that gay and lesbian teenagers are four times more likely than other teens to commit suicide? The church has been so busy signing petitions, putting millions upon millions of dollars into political campaigns to keep gay marriage illegal... but where is the compassion? Why aren't we reaching out and just loving people as God has called us to do? Why is it that Christians seemed to be the people most upset about passing the Matthew Shepard hate crime law which made it a federal crime to assault a person on the basis of their sexual orientation or gender identity? I don't expect everyone in the church to agree on this issue or for the answer to come falling out of the sky and for us to all agree - but can we really say that the church is doing everything we're supposed to be doing here? As I see it, the church doesn't have a real answers for gays and lesbians. The church is afraid of gays. The church doesn't want to talk about homosexuality. It's this big secret. It's happening in our churches and people won't say anything about it. And one day this issue is going to become too big and too pressing... it won't be ignored for long.

Well, interestingly enough, I'm not married, so even if I was having loving consensual sex, I'd be in the same kind of sin boat, even though it would be with a girl- So for me, the church does pretty much say "control your thoughts and maintain celibacy" so it's really not too hard for me to grasp the kind of struggle you're talking about there.

I don't go to one of the more liberal churches you've mentioned, but the church I go to is quite welcoming to all people regardless of the sin in their life because honestly, why go to the hospital if you're healthy, or church if you're sinless? They don't allow people who are actively defining their lifestyle with sin to be in leadership, but that is across the board.

I suppose the problem here is that depending on how you want to look at the original texts you can infer different translations. I have found people trying to explain different forms of "porneia" as only referring to temple prostitutes, and that Christians could swing and have as much premarital & extramarital sex as their partners would agree to . Honestly, I think that as humans we tend to find a comfortable behavior that is natural to us, and then attempt to reverse engineer the justification for the behavior, whether it is good (as defined by the Bible) or not. I can tell you quite honestly that I find myself doing this all the time for different various reasons, so it's not as if I see the LGBT community as having an exclusive pass on this. There are all kinds of things going on in the church today that are extra biblical that no one wants to address and people justify it because either they haven't studied, or because no one is calling them out on it.

I wish I could go more in depth with you on the translation stuff, but my knowledge of the original languages is quite weak, and I think you'd find it frustrating, when there are others here who know far more than I, who would be able to speak to you on that level.


I do hope that this discussion continues because I've learned quite a bit beyond what I knew before, and I would like you to know that I don't mean to come across as yet another jackass trying to beat you up over this.


Perhaps this should go to another thread, but if we divorce ourselves from the old testament restrictions on sex (and only consider the new testament) what does that do regarding Leviticus 18 & 20? I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on that, but it may exceed the scope of this thread.

[TravisR]

Originally Posted by Sean

That's a command we must follow, but that doesn't mean it's the foundation for right and wrong.

If that were the case then sin would be primarily rebellion against other people rather than rebellion against God. It also leaves out the option that there are acts which rebel against God, but are NOT unloving towards our neighbor.

I know I said I wouldn't respond this soon but I read this and I can't help myself. Plus, I need a break from Benjamin Franklin's autobiography.

I quoted this scripture earlier but I'll post it one more time. I think we as Christians too often miss the magnitude of what this is saying:

Romans 13:8-10 (NIV)
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. Whatever commandment there may be is summed up in that one rule: Love your neighbor as yourself. Now, you said something interesting... that "It also leaves out the option that there are acts which rebel against God, but are NOT unloving towards our neighbor." And I'm sitting here... I'm not ready to make this statement right now, because it might be too haughty of a thing for me to say, but I'll ask... is it possible that there is no applicable law we could break that would not also break the highest laws to love neighbor as self and God with all heart/mind/soul/strength...? That's a huge concept, but I think it's something we need to consider seriously. I mean: God is love. What sin could you commit that would not violate that?

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by redbaron

I can't speak for Bill here, but all of us have our own daily battles to fight. Some are harder than others to be sure, but I don't see why that makes them less valid. Is it fair for me to be able to have a glass of wine when a recovering alcoholic may stumble into sin by having a drink? I don't think it's that easy or cut and dried.

I also think that if we're going to look at sin = sin the way God does, and say that they're all equally bad, then we can't elevate our struggle with sin as being more difficult, and thus making us more holy then the people who "have it easy".

Or I could really be missing what you're going after here.

Here's my problem... I'm increasingly frustrated that conversations regarding homosexuality essentially reduce themselves into who is doing what with their ☺☺☺☺☺. The issue is far, far more complex than that, and it is an emotive topic for many of us.

I can't speak for Bryan or TravisR, but what I can say, that as a fellow gay Christian, the question of sex in a relationship is very much at the bottom of the priority list. It's an issue of knowing that every single day of my life since I left university, excepting the 6 months or so I've spent living with parents between graduation and first job, that every day from the time I leave the office to the time I enter the office I will speak to no one, save my Jesus. There is only so many times you can walk into the restaurant and say 'Table for one' until it starts to get to you.

It's not about sex. It's about companionship. About finding someone to share a life with. To roll over and hug in bed (and i mean that in a non-sexual way; I mean it in a 'sharing intimacy' kind of way).

An alcoholic will still have his family. The thief has his friends and cellmates. What you're suggesting is that being asked to live a life of extreme and utter loneliness is somehow on the same level as struggling with straight lust. It's no where near the same thing, and I'd challenge you to consider your relationships if the situation was reversed.

I don't know whether gay sex is a sin or not. Honestly. I've heard and listened to every argument in the book. And I don't know. Whenever I've had a sexual relationship, I've always confessed it as a sin, because I honestly am conflicted about the entire thing. What I do know is that I don't believe God wants me to be miserable in my loneliness for the rest of my life. I have no idea what form or shape what I hope will be a liberation from miserableness will take, but I do know that one day it's going to come.

But it doesn't make it any easier being told that there is some kind of social parity between what straights struggle with and what homosexuals struggle with. If you say in a small group 'I struggle with lusting after my neighbor's wife,' no one is going to recoil from a hug because they think you're trying to feel them up. No one gets nervous in the church changing room. No one looks at you strange when you show up, alone, at the high school foot ball game when you're really there to support that 15 yr old freshman who's dressing out for the first time. You don't have to lie to your parents or people closest to you for years.

We can argue Greek all day long, but don't minimize the struggles that gay Christians have to go through day to day.

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

I don't know whether gay sex is a sin or not. Honestly. I've heard and listened to every argument in the book. And I don't know.

Yeah. I understand the confusion on that one. I tend to think it is but I'm conflicted. Not being gay I can only imagine the level of frustration at having something like that unresolved. I rarely see threads like these with much theological sophistication but at the very least hopefully we can understand each other better.

[Skeeter]

Originally Posted by TravisR

I know I said I wouldn't respond this soon but I read this and I can't help myself. Plus, I need a break from Benjamin Franklin's autobiography.

I quoted this scripture earlier but I'll post it one more time. I think we as Christians too often miss the magnitude of what this is saying:

Romans 13:8-10 (NIV)
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. Whatever commandment there may be is summed up in that one rule: Love your neighbor as yourself. Now, you said something interesting... that "It also leaves out the option that there are acts which rebel against God, but are NOT unloving towards our neighbor." And I'm sitting here... I'm not ready to make this statement right now, because it might be too haughty of a thing for me to say, but I'll ask... is it possible that there is no applicable law we could break that would not also break the highest laws to love neighbor as self and God with all heart/mind/soul/strength...? That's a huge concept, but I think it's something we need to consider seriously. I mean: God is love. What sin could you commit that would not violate that?

I wish I could respond to this more fully, but I have to get your class. I definitely feel your pain on that one.

As to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love is the fulfillment of the law," it's important to point out "Love the Lord your God" as well. I will not deny that homosexuality does no harm to the "neighbor," so our debate is instead whether homosexuality goes against loving God. As Jesus also said, "if you love me, you will do as I command." So, if there is a command against homosexual sex from God (in the Bible), than it would be hateful towards God to engage in homosexual sex.

Sorry for the theological drive-by, I will hopefully return to this thread this evening to expand on this point and/or respond to other posts.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

Here's my problem... I'm increasingly frustrated that conversations regarding homosexuality essentially reduce themselves into who is doing what with their ☺☺☺☺☺. The issue is far, far more complex than that, and it is an emotive topic for many of us.

I can't speak for Bryan or TravisR, but what I can say, that as a fellow gay Christian, the question of sex in a relationship is very much at the bottom of the priority list. It's an issue of knowing that every single day of my life since I left university, excepting the 6 months or so I've spent living with parents between graduation and first job, that every day from the time I leave the office to the time I enter the office I will speak to no one, save my Jesus. There is only so many times you can walk into the restaurant and say 'Table for one' until it starts to get to you.

It's not about sex. It's about companionship. About finding someone to share a life with. To roll over and hug in bed (and i mean that in a non-sexual way; I mean it in a 'sharing intimacy' kind of way).

An alcoholic will still have his family. The thief has his friends and cellmates. What you're suggesting is that being asked to live a life of extreme and utter loneliness is somehow on the same level as struggling with straight lust. It's no where near the same thing, and I'd challenge you to consider your relationships if the situation was reversed.

I don't know whether gay sex is a sin or not. Honestly. I've heard and listened to every argument in the book. And I don't know. Whenever I've had a sexual relationship, I've always confessed it as a sin, because I honestly am conflicted about the entire thing. What I do know is that I don't believe God wants me to be miserable in my loneliness for the rest of my life. I have no idea what form or shape what I hope will be a liberation from miserableness will take, but I do know that one day it's going to come.

But it doesn't make it any easier being told that there is some kind of social parity between what straights struggle with and what homosexuals struggle with. If you say in a small group 'I struggle with lusting after my neighbor's wife,' no one is going to recoil from a hug because they think you're trying to feel them up. No one gets nervous in the church changing room. No one looks at you strange when you show up, alone, at the high school foot ball game when you're really there to support that 15 yr old freshman who's dressing out for the first time. You don't have to lie to your parents or people closest to you for years.

We can argue Greek all day long, but don't minimize the struggles that gay Christians have to go through day to day.

Ridley, your words are far more eloquent than mine, but you have hit the nail on the head. Thank you

Originally Posted by redbaron

They don't allow people who are actively defining their lifestyle with sin to be in leadership, but that is across the board.

but there are churches that don't even allow gays to be members. Oh they can come on Sunday if they like, but to be a member, nope.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Honestly, I got attacked in this thread.

I have tried to be very true to scripture, and personally, I stayed with struggles that for me are always wrong and have no outlet. Honestly, if you are not me, you don't know what my struggles are.

I think a lot of people here have tossed the bible as a moral standard in the crapper. I am trying to point out that every last person on this board, gay, straight, whatever is totally depraved, and several of your positions are in denial of this. The basic premise is I feel this way, thus it must be right.

I struggle mostly with anger, hatred and murder in my heart, not toward gays, but to people who have wronged me very deeply. It has poisoned my life. Try saying that in a bible study. My simple point is that scripture does declare this sin. The best exegetical acrobatics are just that, trying to make texts say what they do not say. I have steared clear of sexual equivalencies, but I will be the first to admit that I have sexual temptations that I can never fulfill. I am a sinner. But I can look at myself and see a sinner with murder in his heart and repent. And I can't ever give in. Ever.

I think this thread has gotten way too personal and rude. I do not see any good coming from it staying open.

*edit*Some people have said they see some good in it staying open. Any more personal attacks and it stays closed, period.

Also, as soon as the google searches hit this thread, which they invariably do with this thread topic, it closes. If you have been around a few years you understand why I get nervous every time this topic comes up. anybody has questions about why I have taken the course of action I have, you can pm me.

But keep it civil guys on all sides.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

As to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love is the fulfillment of the law," it's important to point out "Love the Lord your God" as well. I will not deny that homosexuality does no harm to the "neighbor," so our debate is instead whether homosexuality goes against loving God. As Jesus also said, "if you love me, you will do as I command." So, if there is a command against homosexual sex from God (in the Bible), than it would be hateful towards God to engage in homosexual sex.

yes, if homosexual sex is a sin in all cases, then you are right. But here is where I am coming from.

For the last 20 years I have struggled with this. I have asked God on countless occasions to deliver me from this burden. At the same time, I have never felt guilty about it. I have prayed for the conviction that it is wrong if it truly is. Why hasn't God convicted me of this sin and why hasn't he delivered me from it? I have spent many years angry at God. He has it within his power to deliver me. Hell he has it in his power to completely wipe sin from the face of the earth. While I think that it is most likely that the Bible does teach it as a sin, I don't believe it. And so this struggle has left me alone, miserable, depressed and even provoked thoughts of suicide at times. And after 20 years of prayer, counseling, and even some fasting, I'm fed up. I'm done with fighting it. So I realized that there were three possible options here.
1. It is a sin and I should not engage in homosexual acts.
2. God doesn't exist.
3. It isn't a sin and our understanding of the Bible is flawed.

My response to each of these options:
1. God is a vindictive S.O.B. who has cursed me with this, refuses to deliver me from it, and at the same time threatens me with damnation.
2. I wish I could believe God doesn't exist. As much as it would make my life easier, I can't ignore the reality of God.
3. This is the only option that I see that is consistent with the character of God, my understanding of who I am, and my desire to not spend the rest of my life alone and miserable.

So I pick option 3. If I'm wrong, I hope that God forgives me one day if option 1 is true. If option 2 is true, it won't matter anyway. But if I must spend the rest of my life lonely, depressed, outcast and exiled from the church because it is a sin and God won't deliver me, I'd rather my life come to an end now and not 50 years from now.

It took me a long time to arrive at that conclusion. I am at peace with it and who I am.

[tlj009]

But if I must spend the rest of my life lonely, depressed, outcast and exiled from the church because it is a sin and God won't deliver me, I'd rather my life come to an end now and not 50 years from now.

I am a little confused. I just don't understand how celibacy necessitates a life that is "lonely, depressed, outcast and exiled from the church"???

[TravisR]

Bill, I appreciate your willingness to keep this topic open and I apologize for anything I said that offended you. I do think there is some good yet to be gotten from this thread and if nothing else, the exchange of ideas and opinions is always a good thing.

Skeeter, I look forward to your response. I agree that the command to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength is very important as well. While Paul does not mention that specific command in Romans 13, the two commands are linked elsewhere in scripture by Jesus (Matthew 22:36-40, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28). If the story appears in the book of John, I'm having trouble finding the reference, but I trust that is sufficient. I also think Galatians 5 is worth some mention.

[Role Modlin]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I am a little confused. I just don't understand how celibacy necessitates a life that is "lonely, depressed, outcast and exiled from the church"???

In Genesis (a text we heterosexuals love to flock to in this debate) God Himself says that it is not good for man to be alone. I believe we are designed (to an extent) to desire companionship. I don't believe that being homosexual negates that desire.

Let me add to that.

My relationship with my wife is grounded in that desire to be "with" someone (in a non-sexual context) for the remainder of my life. It's also the reason that I would quite possibly remarry if I were to lose her early to death. I believe most (if not all) humans have that desire within them. That union also has an obvious sexual outlet as well and that is what makes our bond that much more intimate.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I am a little confused. I just don't understand how celibacy necessitates a life that is "lonely, depressed, outcast and exiled from the church"???

Neither do I. The funny thing about this thread is, I would give the same advice to a single straight guy. I have been a single guy who lived in celibacy. In all honesty, loneliness sucks. But loneliness is hardly anyone's solution. (It was to one of the early ascetics, but unless there is some reason you are being called to that life, I would not recommend it.)

You know, there is a problem here that is pretty deep. I do have friends who are Christians, who live in celibacy. Some struggle with lust of one stripe or another. But those who fight it every day are truly living out the Christian faith. And my respect for them is the highest. For those who struggle and fight and have slipped, and who get back up and fight again, I have the utmost respect. However, when people surrender to sin, or justify it it is not because they had to.

Scripture states in 1 Cor 10:13No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

And I was asked what my thoughts were for a Christian who struggles with this sin? (I refuse to call you guys gays, because to me that is objectifying you to one facet of your being) Same thing every Christian has to do.

Find the way of escape, put one foot ahead of the other, and keep going. It is the same thing every Christian who wars against there flesh has to endure.

I know a lot of people try to make this passage about something other than the believer's struggle with his flesh, but in me experience, my struggles which are different, (But I don't say easier, we can't compare that because we have not been through both) line up perfectly with this passage.

Romans 7: 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In short, I thank every last one of us has the same duty, to fight sin in our lives, and all of us have wicked evil hearts. The excuses I have heard about God making me that way really would work for me killing and stealing. I was born with an incredible aptitude for the criminal. I am wicked. My heart is evil.

[tlj009]

In Genesis (a text we heterosexuals love to flock to in this debate) God Himself says that it is not good for man to be alone. I believe we are designed (to an extent) to desire companionship. I don't believe that being homosexual negates that desire.

I agree. But I have friends, family, Church, etc. While a wife is much, much more, I wouldn't regard myself as lonely, depressed, and an outcast before I got married. I think that there has to be some middle ground between yearning for the companionship that a partner brings and being "lonely, depressed, and an outcast". I mean, I did spend 10+ years single before I got married (I didn't really date at all) and I just don't see it.