[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Bryan

where does it condemn it?

I could start with the levitical law, which reveals the character of Yahweh, our God.

Romans is very clear that homosexuality is a perversion.

Jesus speaks of what marriage is to be in the gospels, but really Bryan, I think you know this. That in the beginning he created them male and female...

Really, if you want me to outline a biblical path, I will do my best.

Malakos, according to strongs, does mean soft or fine but also means catamite. A catamite is a male prostitute and it was very common during Ancient Rome. Male prostitutes were often used in ritual temple practices.

I noticed it said that, but I also want to point out that in that usage, I might suggest that that is a very specific usage that I don't think the scriptures point to.

I'll go one further than you. I am not convinced that verse has homosexuality in view at all, being as every other usage is very clearly referring to a different context.

However, every other biblical usage does refer to something specific, and it has NOTHING to do with sex, gay or straight. Thus to take it as a euphemism, for a prostitute seems peculiar. Paul is not bashful about referring to prostitution.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I could start with the levitical law, which reveals the character of Yahweh, our God.

which we conveniently don't follow, but like to quote anyway

Romans is very clear that homosexuality is a perversion.

for the heterosexual man who is engaging in homosexual acts, yes, it is.

Jesus speaks of what marriage is to be in the gospels, but really Bryan, I think you know this. That in the beginning he created them male and female...

but he created me a gay male. And then, as you would have me believe, denies me one of the most basic elements of the human experience, the expression of love with someone I am committed to

Really, if you want me to outline a biblical path, I will do my best.

I am quite familiar with it, thank you

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Bryan

which we conveniently don't follow, but like to quote anyway
for the heterosexual man who is engaging in homosexual acts, yes, it is.

It does reveal God's character.

but he created me a gay male. And then, as you would have me believe, denies me one of the most basic elements of the human experience, the expression of love with someone I am committed to

Which has never been a biblical standard. Marriage has been, from the beginning. Jesus upheld it.

In all honesty, by your logic, I should kill. My personality is violent, volatile, and I am excellent at physical combat. I am great with weapons. God made me as a person with extreme capabilities to do the wrong thing. Each day, I get up in the morning and fight who I am. Yeah, its a different fight. But I fight it every day. I have to. I am excellent at theft, breaking and entering, avoiding detection... ...I am near the perfect natural criminal. I don't know what you go through, but deep in our very heart, every last one of us desires to sin. Our hearts are all deceitful and desperately wicked

I am quite familiar with it, thank you

From the words of Jesus, yet you are choosing to live in violation of it? I am sorry, but that is hypocrisy plain and simple.

I am not going to use the mosaic law or the traditional passages.

The fact is, the Bible does not say everything is okay except ... and give a list.

It says nothing is okay except marriage with a spouse, of the opposite gender. At least that is what the incarnate Christ said.

[S.B.Nichols]

Originally Posted by Bryan

but he created me a gay male. And then, as you would have me believe, denies me one of the most basic elements of the human experience, the expression of love with someone I am committed to

My first thought here was to challenge you on as to why God would create anyone (Psalm 139:13) to be a homosexual (Romans 1:26-27, James 1:13). Instead, I'm now absolutely curious as to what the human experience is or should be, biblically.

[Thrash]

The fall.

[OiBoyz]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Each day, I get up in the morning and fight who I am. Yeah, its a different fight. But I fight it every day. I have to.

Amen. I fight this fight everyday. My fight is different than yours, but in a sense it is the same. Taking up my cross, putting the old man to death. To me, that struggle almost defines the Christian walk. If' you're not struggling, you're not walking. And it doesn't matter what your particular sin of choice happens to be.

[athanatos]

First, I want to say that I respect your ability and guts to step out here and actually address this issue, knowing full-well that you will receive less than cordial responses.

Second, know that my statements before I do not retract about how we live our lives, as someone put it "narratively." Life, with all the choices made, is on a continuum, not distinctly segmented or developed in a vacuum. Corruption is gradual, not feeling the Libertarian sense of freedom (which I think, as they present it, is probably non-existent); and sanctification is also a process, the "undoing" of time, as CS Lewis puts it. So you need not think that you had a choice in this per se. It felt natural, but you're not to be a natural man.

Originally Posted by Bryan

for the heterosexual man who is engaging in homosexual acts, yes, it is.

A man is a man; the distinction is in our heads, as it has only recently been constructed. Paul did not distinguish, nor do I think he could distinguish between a "heterosexual" or "homosexual" man for which that is perversion. Nor do I think we should make this distinction, because many of our modern dichotomies, not limited to sexuality even, are nonsense. Ya know all those postmodern theories about homosexuality and heterosexuality being on a continuum between them, with most people having a slight tendency and others have stronger? It is a reaction to the truth that the dichotomy is artificial. A man who does homosexual acts is homosexual. It is of most repugnant absurdity to say a "heterosexual man who commits homosexual acts", as if we can ask whether a circular-square can be rolled or not.

[edit]
When surveyed, most people think a circular square can be rolled, even though it is an impossible object.

[rock_show_host]

Since these debates always tend to get bogged down in semantics (and I'm guilty of that myself), I'm wondering if it might be helpful to clarify a few terms.

Can we all agree, at the very least, that there is a difference between:

Category A: a person with homosexual inclinations/temptations (as in, one who is by default attracted to the same sex rather than the opposite sex), and as a subset,

Category B: a person who actively engages in homosexual sex/lust.

Note that I'm not asking for a consensus on the moral implications of either category -- I realize people may disagree about that. I just feel like it's easy to talk past each other on this topic when we're all throwing around the word "homosexual" and using it interchangeably between both categories. On top of that, a lot of us have preconceived associations with the word that we can easily attach to it regardless of context. I'm thinking specifically of a debate a while ago involving a self-proclaimed homosexual pastor; the discussion got fairly heated (for which I share much of the blame) because it ended up revolving around the pastor's choice of words in labeling himself as "openly gay," with different people reading different things into that. I think discussions go much more smoothly when we're talking constructively through ideas rather than splitting hairs over vocabulary.

So...is there any set of terms we could use consistently to distinguish between categories A and B?

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by athanatos

A man who does homosexual acts is homosexual.

And a man who is chaste is neither? What about one's internal life?

[Guitarman121319]

Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols

Instead, I'm now absolutely curious as to what the human experience is or should be, biblically.

Yeah, I am kinda curious as well.

[Ted Logan]

Bryan,

I have a forthcoming response to your treatment of 1 Cor 6. I look forward to posting it tomorrow. Just letting you know.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Ted Logan

Bryan,

I have a forthcoming response to your treatment of 1 Cor 6. I look forward to posting it tomorrow. Just letting you know.

I look forward to reading it.

[TunerSteve]

This is always a very interesting subject, and one that will probably never be fully resolved, but I'll go ahead and add my thoughts.

I have a brother, who is now living an openly gay life, with the same partner for the last 15+ years. It is my belief that he was born with an inclination of being attracted to men. He's only 1 year older than me, and we were nurtured in the same household, by the same rules, but in retrospect he was always different than my other 3 brothers.

This begs the question of why would God make someone with gay inclinations, if it is wrong to fulfill those inclinations? My feelings currently are that we all are born with the inclination to sin, and each of us fights different battles trying to be the person God created us to be. Is it fair that some have more difficult battles than others? Not for me to decide, even if I knew what the word 'fair' actually means.

I don't understand the psychology of it all, and probably never will. I certainly understand why we have laws against pedophilia, but I don't understand the mindset of those that engage in such behavior. Don't misunderstand, I'm not comparing homosexuality with pedophilia, I'm trying to understand why we have mixed up inclinations like we do.

[Guitarman121319]

Originally Posted by TunerSteve

This is always a very interesting subject, and one that will probably never be fully resolved, but I'll go ahead and add my thoughts.

I have a brother, who is now living an openly gay life, with the same partner for the last 15+ years. It is my belief that he was born with an inclination of being attracted to men. He's only 1 year older than me, and we were nurtured in the same household, by the same rules, but in retrospect he was always different than my other 3 brothers.

This begs the question of why would God make someone with gay inclinations, if it is wrong to fulfill those inclinations? My feelings currently are that we all are born with the inclination to sin, and each of us fights different battles trying to be the person God created us to be. Is it fair that some have more difficult battles than others? Not for me to decide, even if I knew what the word 'fair' actually means.

I don't understand the psychology of it all, and probably never will. I certainly understand why we have laws against pedophilia, but I don't understand the mindset of those that engage in such behavior. Don't misunderstand, I'm not comparing homosexuality with pedophilia, I'm trying to understand why we have mixed up inclinations like we do.

I feel you. I was born with the inclinations to just kill people. It is an inclination that I battle with every day. So because I battle with it it should not be a sin...

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by kent|

I feel you. I was born with the inclinations to just kill people. It is an inclination that I battle with every day. So because I battle with it it should not be a sin...

well no. because killing hurts someone else. consensual sex with an adult of the same sex hurts no one.