[monkeysmile]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

I'm a little puzzled. You asked what people thought, and then you're arguing with them? Was this supposed to be a thread to debate, or just to give our thoughts on the matter?

I am too. I wanted people's thoughts, but I was asked for mine, gave them, and was asked why I thought them...and it snowballs.

I'd like to go back to thoughts and views, a Mod can delete my debate posts if they like.

[joshaber]

Originally Posted by monkeysmile

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


It says right there that it was the lusts of their own hearts, not a natural gene. I'm just saying that like any sin, it's a choice the individual has to make.

The lust is a choice, sure. But is the attraction a choice? Those are very different things. My attraction to women is not a choice nor is it a sin, but lusting after them is my choice and is a sin.

[monkeysmile]

Originally Posted by joshaber

The lust is a choice, sure. But is the attraction a choice?

I know I've already been answering questions, but that's not what I wanted from this thread, I wanted to see views and why they believe the views, because frankly I don't understand some. Do you want to go to PM?

[joshaber]

Originally Posted by monkeysmile

I know I've already been answering questions, but that's not what I wanted from this thread, I wanted to see views and why they believe the views, because frankly I don't understand some. Do you want to go to PM?

That's fair. The reason I kept it in the thread is because, for me at least, the best way to understand a position is to interact with it.

[monkeysmile]

Originally Posted by joshaber

That's fair. The reason I kept it in the thread is because, for me at least, the best way to understand a position is to interact with it.

I know, that's usually how I see it, but I know how these kind of threads can turn into battlefields instead of discussion, so I think it would be best to keep it private.

[OiBoyz]

I'll give you my thoughts for what they're worth. I don't know whether the homosexual desire is a choice or not. I'm not sure how anyone could be sure. But what I do think is that acting on it is a sin. The Scripture makes that pretty clear. But it's certainly not the only sexual sin there is, and perhaps not even the worst one. To have the attraction, IMO is not sin. To act on it is. As a single woman I am in a similar situation. Until and unless I get married, acting on my sexual desires would be sin too. I may never marry, and if that's the case, then I will have to remain chaste as well.

[tlj009]

I've seen some threads on this topic here, and I just want to see the standpoints of everyone on the matter.(And why you believe it if you want) So far I think I've seen the dominant feeling is that it's not a sin unless you partake in the act, since you can be born into it. I personally believe it to be a choice, like any other sinful lust. *waits for attack*

So the act is a sin and lust is a sin but sexual attraction is not a sin. Could someone define lust and sexual attraction so that a line can be drawn between the two? The way that I see it, the minute that you give way to your desires and accept that "she is fine" or "he is fine", then you are giving in a little to your lust. Sexual attraction may be natural, but if you give in to it in the least, you are giving a place for lust in your heart.

I will compare it to fasting. Fasting is great but when you allow yourself to think of food, you have allowed your lust for food to have a place. And then it will eat at you until you either push it from your mind or give in to it.

[Guitarman121319]

Originally Posted by monkeysmile

I've seen some threads on this topic here, and I just want to see the standpoints of everyone on the matter.(And why you believe it if you want) So far I think I've seen the dominant feeling is that it's not a sin unless you partake in the act, since you can be born into it. I personally believe it to be a choice, like any other sinful lust. *waits for attack*

I agree check this verse out,

Corinthians 6:9-11, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.

[athanatos]

I think our ideas of choice are skewed by the Libertarian thought of the Enlightenment and post-Enlight. thinkers. We don't make choices in a vacuum, but they are considered responsible and free (to some extent). Homosexuality is a choice, just like gluttony is a choice, just like pride is a choice, just like adultery is a choice. It isn't borne in a day. It flows from the heart, and the heart is wicked and grows wicked in circumstances. We are damned by our sinfulness, not our ability to choose or realization that we were wrong.

[OiBoyz]

Originally Posted by tlj009

I will compare it to fasting. Fasting is great but when you allow yourself to think of food, you have allowed your lust for food to have a place. And then it will eat at you until you either push it from your mind or give in to it.

It's a silly comparison, IMO. Fasting is nowhere required in Scripture. It falls in the category of voluntary vows. As a single woman, let me tell you that chastity is not a voluntary issue. It's mandatory if I am to not be in sin. I don't get to choose whether or not I am going to do it. (Edited to clarify: the choice I have is to remain faithful to God, or to choose to sin.)

The difference between attraction and lust is a heart issue. I can notice a man is attractive. Even a married man. But it's when my mind dwells on it and I take my thoughts to places they should not go that define lust. When Jesus said "you have committed adultery with her already in your heart" He wasn't just talking about a passing "Wow! She's hot!" He was saying that in your mind you already "went there."


Post #1400 for me. Whoot!

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

I'll give you my thoughts for what they're worth. I don't know whether the homosexual desire is a choice or not. I'm not sure how anyone could be sure. But what I do think is that acting on it is a sin. The Scripture makes that pretty clear. But it's certainly not the only sexual sin there is, and perhaps not even the worst one. To have the attraction, IMO is not sin. To act on it is. As a single woman I am in a similar situation. Until and unless I get married, acting on my sexual desires would be sin too. I may never marry, and if that's the case, then I will have to remain chaste as well.

I agree with all of this.

Originally Posted by tlj009

So the act is a sin and lust is a sin but sexual attraction is not a sin. Could someone define lust and sexual attraction so that a line can be drawn between the two?

I by no means claim to be a scholar, but when I talk about attraction as opposed to lust I'm referring solely to orientation. Like others have said, I never chose to be attracted to women rather than men, I just always have been. The attraction is not sinful, it's just my default state of being. Lust, to me, is when I allow my thoughts to take me captive rather than my taking them captive -- when I stray from simply acknowledging that a woman is beautiful to coveting her or entertaining thoughts that are inappropriate outside of marriage.

Simply put, as far as I'm concerned, attraction is an involuntary state of being, while lust is an action and a choice.

Originally Posted by athanatos

Homosexuality is a choice, just like gluttony is a choice, just like pride is a choice, just like adultery is a choice. It isn't borne in a day. It flows from the heart, and the heart is wicked and grows wicked in circumstances. We are damned by our sinfulness, not our ability to choose or realization that we were wrong.

What do you mean by homosexuality? Are you referring to homosexual sex or lust, or just to a person's inclinations toward same-sex attraction? Not trying to start a debate, just wondering.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by monkeysmile

I've seen some threads on this topic here, and I just want to see the standpoints of everyone on the matter.(And why you believe it if you want) So far I think I've seen the dominant feeling is that it's not a sin unless you partake in the act, since you can be born into it. I personally believe it to be a choice, like any other sinful lust. *waits for attack*

So I am guessing you are a straight guy. Me too. But think about this:

Could you actually think about having sex with a man? I mean actually consider it? I doubt it. Would you consider having sex with some hairy dude instead of a beautiful woman? Again, I doubt it.

Doesn't that lead you to believe that the desire to perform such actions may well be involuntary?

And if they are involuntary, and not a choice, how could it be their fault that they behave that way?

Just something to think about.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by kent|

I agree check this verse out,

Corinthians 6:9-11, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Have you ever cursed at your parents (Ex 21:17, Lev 20:9)? Or ben a stubborn and rebellious child (Deut 21:18-21)?

Uh oh.

[athanatos]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

What do you mean by homosexuality? Are you referring to homosexual sex or lust, or just to a person's inclinations toward same-sex attraction? Not trying to start a debate, just wondering.

To be very blunt, I am not very sure exactly for this. Inclinations seem like they are on a gradient and I can't give a cut-and-dry answer for that; yet according to Matthew 5 sections on hate, lust, etc., it seems like we are condemned for wanting something that is wrong, while it resides in our hearts. Therefore, I want to say that it starts with our inclinations, but ...then it makes me wonder at what point that criterion would rule Jesus Christ a sinner on the basis of His desires, given that He was genuinely tempted (and yet was without sin). James says that we are tempted by our own desires that are within us, and desire gives birth to sin, and sin birth to death. Most obviously, then, it should be the actual acts and the lust, but... inclinations it seems hard to pin down whether they should be included or not (or to what extent).

Which is why I think pride is a really good analogous sin in this discussion, given that often you don't need to be conscious of it or make a decision to be proud. You may not even think you have a desire to prop up your fragile self-esteem, you may not be aware that you put others down when you feel down, you may not be able to think of a time when you compared yourself to others condescendingly, you may not be thinking that you're crushing other people socially in any individual act; yet it can be pride, and other people also might not be able to put their finger on a specific decision or a distinct gesture which makes one "proud" -- yet pride can be so damning! Homosexuality, along with many other sins, can be just like this.

I know two guys who were told repeatedly that they were gay. They had higher voices, they enjoyed hanging around women, they liked to keep themselves well groomed, they enjoyed nature, etc. None of these things make one gay (e.g. hanging with women??). Yet they are gay today. It didn't start with experimentation, in my observation/opinion. It started when they were being bludgeoned by their friends and peers, when they took it to heart, and when they went from there in various circumstances as their hearts had more opportunities to drift further into living in sin. In fact, one of them didn't experiment until after he "came out of the closet." Now he is apostate, mocks God, makes my arrogance ant-like (a feat in itself), smokes a variety of things, engages in illicit behavior, and rejects all godly counsel on the basis that he knows it is godly counsel. He took his homosexuality as valuable, as part of who he is, and grabbed on tightly in his selfish heart, to the point of abandoning everything and every one - even his family to go live in California. To sum this up, I reject the notion that it is an overt act that makes one homosexually sinful. It isn't a clear line to make, which makes the true arbiter on the whole situation, the one sinned against: God.

For us to know is another issue, though. We know overt acts. The sinner may know more. God knows further still, even the deepest, darkest parts of the man's heart. The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?

Sorry for bombing this thread with a long post relative to the question given.

at least I didn't Ted Logan it ; )

[Travis]

I must really ask why you Christians care so much about who other people have sex with. How in the world does that effect you?