[Sean]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

Seriously? I don't agree with this at all. I don't know a single believer who is sinless. I'm certainly not. So I guess I was never saved to begin with.

Paul seemed to have some big struggles.


Romans 7
15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by WorshipJesus

It would be good to say that God may never take away a believer's inclination towards homosexuality, but those who still practice homosexuality were never saved in the first place. Just like a believe may be drawn (not act upon consistently) to lust, lie, or disobey his parents so it is the same with a believer who may have been a homosexual. The fleshly desire is still there, but God makes the way out of that temptation to glorify Himself in His child.

This is "Gospel" by behavior modification. We're saved by not behaving the same way we did before our 'salvation.' Law instead of grace. Mixing justification with sanctification. Jesus-less "good news."

[LinkH]

[QUOTE=rock_show_host;3491027
Assuming you're a straight male (if not, I apologize -- I was just going by your username), could you just decide to marry and enjoy a sexual/intimate relationship with another man? Or would the very thought repulse you?[/quote]

Yes, it is a repulsive thought. But the Holy Spirit is not working on me to make it unrepulsive either.

God can certainly transform the worst of us, and will always give us the strength to endure even the worst of our struggles. But He never promises that we will be set free from them. Never. Not once. Being dead unto our sins does not mean that we will no longer struggle with them.

Jesus spoke about the Son setting one free, indeed, from sin in John 8. Paul wrote about God working in us to will and to do that which is good. He talks bout being transformed by the renewing of our minds.

I agree that anyone who is called to be celibate has the capacity to do so by the grace of God. I just wish that the church would show a little more empathy and understanding for people who must undergo that struggle, instead of treating them like they're dirty for even struggling in the first place.

I can understand your concern.

Of course God has allowed some people to change. Jesus also healed a lame man during His time on earth. Does that mean that every paralytic who has enough faith will be healed by God? No. Becoming a believer does not mean that all of our problems just melt away -- some paralytic Christians will never walk, and some homosexual Christians will never be rid of their struggle.

All things are possible to him that believes.

To try and encourage them by telling them happy stories of Christians who got what they wanted is cruel, quite frankly.

A homosexual hearing about someone who overcame unrighteous urges and desires is not cruel and can be very encouraging.

Romans 1 shows that men got into vile affections because of their own sin. In the example of the person wanting to commit adultery, that doesn't just happen. You don't fall in love with a married coworker through no fault of your own. It happens when you look, stare, and imagine. You look when you shouldn't. You imagine what you shouldn't and let your mind wonder in that area. Homosexuality is a bit different because in a lot of cases, people with this problem are inclined to think about the types of relationships that just can't be righteous. We 'straight' people can get married and have a relationship that way.

But God does work on people's hearts and desires if they yield to Him.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by LinkH

Yes, it is a repulsive thought. But the Holy Spirit is not working on me to make it unrepulsive either.

You were suggesting that a homosexual could easily satisfy their longing for intimacy by simply marrying someone of the opposite sex. I was just pointing out that it doesn't work that way, as you confirmed.

Originally Posted by LinkH

Jesus spoke about the Son setting one free, indeed, from sin in John 8. Paul wrote about God working in us to will and to do that which is good. He talks bout being transformed by the renewing of our minds.

Jesus and Paul certainly talk about all those things. What none of them do is promise that in the renewal of our minds, our sinful nature and temptations will disappear. As Christians, we are no longer slaves to sin, but we will never be perfect while we are on this earth. It is a fallen world, we are fallen humans, and we sin. What is important is that we repent and recognize that Christ has forgiven us.

Originally Posted by LinkH

All things are possible to him that believes.

Certainly. But not all things are guaranteed. I absolutely believe in miracles, but I also acknowledge that the Bible doesn't promise me miraculous solutions to any of my problems.

Originally Posted by LinkH

A homosexual hearing about someone who overcame unrighteous urges and desires is not cruel and can be very encouraging.

It is cruel, because nobody who struggles with homosexual desires is guaranteed freedom from them in this lifetime. The Bible never promises that God will change their desires/"turn them straight"/however you want to put it. And to spend one's entire life battling those desires is tougher and more painful than I can imagine.

Suppose you're someone who has always wanted to be a marathon runner. Then at one point in your life, you wind up needing to have both your legs amputated. You believe that God is absolutely capable of miraculously restoring your legs, but know that He never promised to heal you in that way, and that you may never run again in your life. How would you feel if you lived out the remainder of your life in a wheelchair, and I spent the entirety of that time telling you true stories of people in your situation who had miraculously been cured? How would that encourage you? How would it send you any kind of message other than, "You must not be as strong a Christian as these inspiring people. God can do anything, and if only you would pray harder and have more faith like the others, surely He would heal you."

Certainly we need to remember that with God, miracles are possible. But miracles shouldn't be used as spiritual incentives. God doesn't guarantee that our pain and our battles will go away in this lifetime, but rather that if we put our faith in Him, He will always give us the strength and the power to endure them, and that all our earthly tears will be wiped away during our eternal life in His kingdom.

Originally Posted by LinkH

Romans 1 shows that men got into vile affections because of their own sin. In the example of the person wanting to commit adultery, that doesn't just happen. You don't fall in love with a married coworker through no fault of your own. It happens when you look, stare, and imagine. You look when you shouldn't. You imagine what you shouldn't and let your mind wonder in that area. Homosexuality is a bit different because in a lot of cases, people with this problem are inclined to think about the types of relationships that just can't be righteous. We 'straight' people can get married and have a relationship that way.

You're right -- lust and adultery don't just happen. They are conscious choices. I agree that homosexual lust/actions are a choice, and that the Bible forbids them. But the Bible also makes it clear that temptation is not a sin, whether the temptation applies to the opposite sex or the same sex. A person who finds themselves tempted sexually by the same sex is no less moral simply by being tempted than one who is temped sexually by the opposite sex.

Originally Posted by LinkH

But God does work on people's hearts and desires if they yield to Him.

Agreed. But giving us a heart for Him and a desire to obey Him is not the same as removing all stumbling blocks from our lives. Do you sin? Do sinful things tempt you even though God is at work in you? Having a heart for God does not mean that we're capable of living without sin.

[LinkH]

rock_show_host

The Bible talks about the Lord working in us to will and to do that which is good. There are plenty of other promises like this. I don't see any reason to think of the former homosexuals struggle against sin as any more depressing than anyone else's. God gives sufficient grace to his children to overcome temptation, and we have joy if we follow Christ in the power of the Spirit. There is nothing depressing about it.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by LinkH

rock_show_host

The Bible talks about the Lord working in us to will and to do that which is good. There are plenty of other promises like this. I don't see any reason to think of the former homosexuals struggle against sin as any more depressing than anyone else's. God gives sufficient grace to his children to overcome temptation, and we have joy if we follow Christ in the power of the Spirit. There is nothing depressing about it.

Have you ever met anyone who has struggled with homosexuality? Because I really don't see any empathy or understanding in the way you talk about their situation.

I agree that we shouldn't lose sight of the bigger picture; at the end of the day, we all struggle with sin, and God offers His strength to all of us in equal measure. But the fact is that a lifelong struggle with homosexuality is painful in a way that most people who've never experienced it (myself included) can't fully understand -- to deny that is naive, frankly. Acknowledging that sin is sin doesn't mean that we need to become clinically detached and trivialize others' suffering. Where is the love in that? It's also a fact that plenty of Christians and churches have a history of pouring salt in the wound when they should be encouraging and lifting up their fellow believers in a time of need.

LinkH, I still can't help but feel that you're deliberately keeping this issue at a comfortable distance. Have you ever tried to put yourself in the shoes of a fellow Christian who's gone through a struggle with homosexuality? If you had, I have a hard time believing that you'd still be able to so easily write off the hardships of such a large group of your brothers and sisters in Christ.

To me, based on your posts, your attitude toward homosexuals comes off like this: "The Bible says it's wrong, end of story -- just suck it up and stop whining about how hard your life is, and if you pray hard enough, God will take it away." Honestly, there's no love in that approach, and I've personally seen it drive people away from the church.

If you were undergoing a painful struggle with something that you felt ashamed about, would you want me to stand at a distance, hurl Scripture at you and tell you you're overreacting? Wouldn't it be a better witness for me to make an effort to understand your hardships and take your pain seriously, all the while continuing to remind you that Jesus loves you and will give you the strength to battle it out to the end?

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by LinkH

rock_show_host

The Bible talks about the Lord working in us to will and to do that which is good. There are plenty of other promises like this. I don't see any reason to think of the former homosexuals struggle against sin as any more depressing than anyone else's. God gives sufficient grace to his children to overcome temptation, and we have joy if we follow Christ in the power of the Spirit. There is nothing depressing about it.

There is a lot depressing about getting up every day and fighting your flesh, even if there is always a way of escape, it doesn't mean that way of escape is easy or fun.