[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

I'll also be so bold as to say that I honestly think that the only reason a lot of Christians have such an easy time accepting this issue is that they haven't ever been faced with it or felt the need to examine it on a personal level.

Maybe. I think some reasons a lot of Christians get on the warpath are:
1) They are tempted by it and are self-loathing.
2) If you are not tempted by something its an easy way to be better than someone else, and boast. (Which Romans 1 also condemns)

Personally, I think of the day I accidentally went to six flags over Tx on gay day. By the end of the day I was pissed off, angry and just frustrated with people's behavior. Not the folks there, but the "christians" who I was with. Hearing what they said infuriated me.

So at the same time, I think it is a very difficult subject to get the right attitude on. I know that I have never been tempted that way. Not even once. However, I know the ways I get tempted, and the ways I have fallen in the past. I know the lusts of my own heart.

Do I know how the church should respond? No. I can say we need to love people more as Christ loved them. I can say that I try every day for this, but really it is a tricky subject. Because there is a fine line between love and condoning of activity, and well, it is always hard. I struggle with it in our youth group a lot, not so much this issue, but drugs, sex, violence, etc. How do you love a kid, but reject their lifestyle as sin. It is not easy.

[Ted Logan]

I went to Six Flags on Gay Day once.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by Ted Logan

I went to Six Flags on Gay Day once.

If it was 2001... ...that would be spooky.

[Ted Logan]

I think it was before that.

[LinkH]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

However, it is still a hard teaching for me to wrap my head around -- I'm not going to sugarcoat that. I believe (as others here have already said) that according to the Bible, a person with homosexual inclinations doesn't always operate that way by choice. God allows some to be changed, but some never are, and in order to live a Godly life, those people must live out their lives in celibacy, often battling their desire for romantic companionship every day because marriage is not an option for them. As someone who is engaged to a wonderful woman who I love with all my heart, yes, it is hard for me to accept that some people are forbidden to experience that level of human companionship, for reasons (at least in some cases) beyond their control.

There are plenty of 'heterosexual' men who have a desire for romantic and sexual intimacy but God requires them to be celibate. In our society, in order to be able to support a family, men often go to school and wait years to marry, and if they are Christian and live as they should, then they are celibate during the time of life when one's sex drive is the hardest to control.

On an emotional level, there are men are tempted to have a romantic relationship with another man's wife. I met a man a few weeks ago who had just had surgery. He was out of work, but he had had feelings for a coworker. She was still married, but he said, "their marriage was over." The woman's husband didn't know about that. Apparently, it wasn't anything sexual yet from what he said. They talked on the phone. He said he used to go to the church I had started attending.

Celibacy isn't the only option for men who struggle with homosexuality are necessarily. They can marry (one woman per man that is.) I believe the man should tell the woman beforehand his background and struggles.

But I don't buy into the homosexual rhetoric that they are just made that way that that is that. Plenty of people have messed up desires for wrong things. God's grace is a lot more powerful than our struggles and God can set free people from their lusts. There are plenty of promises in the Bible about it. And the Bible teaches the one who is baptized into Christ to consider himself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God. The believer who had struggles in the past with homosexual lusts should consider himself dead to such things and alive unto God. God can transform him.

Paul says in I Corinthians 7 that one is gifted after this manner, and another after that. I see this as an indication that God either gifts believers with grace to marry or grace to be celibate. If a believer can't be celibate, he should marry.

I heard a second-hand testimony-- someone telling me about someone else's testimony. There was this 18 or 19 year old college student who indulged in homosexuality. Later, he became a believer. A couple of decades later, he stood up and gave a testimony about his past. He had married, and he had changed so much. He wasn't 'gay' anymore. God had done a work in his life.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by LinkH

There are plenty of 'heterosexual' men who have a desire for romantic and sexual intimacy but God requires them to be celibate. In our society, in order to be able to support a family, men often go to school and wait years to marry, and if they are Christian and live as they should, then they are celibate during the time of life when one's sex drive is the hardest to control.

I understand that these desires aren't limited to homosexuality -- I never said that Christians who struggle with homosexual inclinations are the only ones who have it hard. Again, though, we're not just talking about someone who has to wait a few tough years before they can satisfy their desires; we're talking about people who may never be able to satisfy their yearnings for intimacy, and must live out the entire remainders of their lives in celibacy. The two are hardly equivalent.

Originally Posted by LinkH

Celibacy isn't the only option for men who struggle with homosexuality are necessarily. They can marry (one woman per man that is.) I believe the man should tell the woman beforehand his background and struggles.

Assuming you're a straight male (if not, I apologize -- I was just going by your username), could you just decide to marry and enjoy a sexual/intimate relationship with another man? Or would the very thought repulse you?

Originally Posted by LinkH

But I don't buy into the homosexual rhetoric that they are just made that way that that is that.

Have you ever struggled with homosexual temptation? If not, you're really not in a position to be making this kind of claim.

Originally Posted by LinkH

Plenty of people have messed up desires for wrong things. God's grace is a lot more powerful than our struggles and God can set free people from their lusts. There are plenty of promises in the Bible about it. And the Bible teaches the one who is baptized into Christ to consider himself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God. The believer who had struggles in the past with homosexual lusts should consider himself dead to such things and alive unto God. God can transform him.

God can certainly transform the worst of us, and will always give us the strength to endure even the worst of our struggles. But He never promises that we will be set free from them. Never. Not once. Being dead unto our sins does not mean that we will no longer struggle with them.

Originally Posted by LinkH

Paul says in I Corinthians 7 that one is gifted after this manner, and another after that. I see this as an indication that God either gifts believers with grace to marry or grace to be celibate. If a believer can't be celibate, he should marry.

I agree that anyone who is called to be celibate has the capacity to do so by the grace of God. I just wish that the church would show a little more empathy and understanding for people who must undergo that struggle, instead of treating them like they're dirty for even struggling in the first place.

Originally Posted by LinkH

I heard a second-hand testimony-- someone telling me about someone else's testimony. There was this 18 or 19 year old college student who indulged in homosexuality. Later, he became a believer. A couple of decades later, he stood up and gave a testimony about his past. He had married, and he had changed so much. He wasn't 'gay' anymore. God had done a work in his life.

Of course God has allowed some people to change. Jesus also healed a lame man during His time on earth. Does that mean that every paralytic who has enough faith will be healed by God? No. Becoming a believer does not mean that all of our problems just melt away -- some paralytic Christians will never walk, and some homosexual Christians will never be rid of their struggle. To try and encourage them by telling them happy stories of Christians who got what they wanted is cruel, quite frankly. The important work that God does in His followers is to change our hearts and give us a longing for Him and, more importantly, to forgive us for the sins that we lack the strength to overcome on our own.

[S.B.Nichols]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

God can certainly transform the worst of us, and will always give us the strength to endure even the worst of our struggles. But He never promises that we will be set free from them. Never. Not once. Being dead unto our sins does not mean that we will no longer struggle with them.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but what about Romans 6? Keep in mind that passage was written by the 'chief of sinners'. Struggling with sin isn't quite the same as being subject to them. A Christian is to be a slave to righteousness, not a subject to sin. The question of how it relates to this topic is whether or not homosexuality (in part or in whole) is a sin. And whether someone who claims to be a christian and a homosexual (in part or in whole) is being a slave to righteousness or a slave to sin.

[redbaron]

Originally Posted by Bryan:
My response to each of these options:
1. God is a vindictive S.O.B. who has cursed me with this, refuses to deliver me from it, and at the same time threatens me with damnation.
2. I wish I could believe God doesn't exist. As much as it would make my life easier, I can't ignore the reality of God.
3. This is the only option that I see that is consistent with the character of God, my understanding of who I am, and my desire to not spend the rest of my life alone and miserable.

Or perhaps it's option #4? Obviously Paul doesn't say what his affliction was, but it is clear that he was suffering greatly because of it, and God chose not to relieve him of the affliction.

2nd Corinthians 12:7-10

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Obviously, I'm not in your shoes, and as Travis pointed out, there's a stigma attached to homosexuality that I don't have to deal with because I'm not. However, as a person who's nearing 30 (only a bit over 3 years away now) and the likelihood that I will be married before then looking incredibly doubtful, the struggle against my physical man isn't that easy either. I want to have companionship and sex and all the other good stuff that the vast majority of people want, but it's not on the horizon. I've spent the vast majority of my adult life single and lonely, to be honest. I've chosen to absorb myself in church, hobbies, friends, and work since I find that when my mind has time to self-reflect it's worse.

Obviously it's two different levels of struggle going on here, and I'm not saying it isn't. Nor am I trying to say I have it as bad, or worse, or anything else. Everyone has their own struggle, and frankly I find it disheartening that the church isn't better at ministering to the gay community in the first place.

The one question that I've been pondering, and obviously you'll have to bear with the fact that I'm coming from a position where homosexual sex is sin- If that is the case, then why identify that way? I don't choose to identify myself as a liar or a lust(er?) or an idolator, but at times I could easily be defined by those things. The problem is, I find that the more I've grown, the less I want to be identified by any part of myself, but only by Christ.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by S.B.Nichols

Maybe I'm missing your point, but what about Romans 6? Keep in mind that passage was written by the 'chief of sinners'. Struggling with sin isn't quite the same as being subject to them. A Christian is to be a slave to righteousness, not a subject to sin.

This is true, and maybe my word choice was poor. By saying that God never promises to set us free, I only meant to counter the idea that our sinful temptations will simply melt away when we put our faith in God. A Christian who is tempted by lust and pornography (and I'm speaking autobiographically here) is not a slave to those temptations, but is certainly not guaranteed freedom from them. I need not be subject to lust, but it is still be an ongoing battle, and may be for the rest of my life.

I mostly meant to address what I feel is often a double standard in talking about this issue. LinkH talked of Christians who have "struggled in the past with homosexual lusts"; what of Christians who struggle presently with them? Can they not be "baptized unto Christ" like any of the rest of us who currently struggle with different sins? It sometimes seems as though the church holds those with homosexual temptations to a higher standard than those with any other types of sinful inclinations, suggesting that if a gay Christian truly had a heart for God, he wouldn't even need to battle those temptations, let alone give into them. To me, that's a hurtful and dangerous way to minister, because it basically preaches that Christians tempted by homosexuality are doomed until they achieve perfection. If anything, the prevalence of that attitude is only going to encourage more Christians to give up and surrender to their desires, since we're basically teaching them that they're damned either way. I may have permanently driven a high school friend away from Christ because of my lack of sensitivity to his struggle with homosexuality -- it hurts me to think about it, and I never want to see that happen again.

[WorshipJesus]

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

This is true, and maybe my word choice was poor. By saying that God never promises to set us free, I only meant to counter the idea that our sinful temptations will simply melt away when we put our faith in God. A Christian who is tempted by lust and pornography (and I'm speaking autobiographically here) is not a slave to those temptations, but is certainly not guaranteed freedom from them. I need not be subject to lust, but it is still be an ongoing battle, and may be for the rest of my life.

I mostly meant to address what I feel is often a double standard in talking about this issue. LinkH talked of Christians who have "struggled in the past with homosexual lusts"; what of Christians who struggle presently with them? Can they not be "baptized unto Christ" like any of the rest of us who currently struggle with different sins? It sometimes seems as though the church holds those with homosexual temptations to a higher standard than those with any other types of sinful inclinations, suggesting that if a gay Christian truly had a heart for God, he wouldn't even need to battle those temptations, let alone give into them. To me, that's a hurtful and dangerous way to minister, because it basically preaches that Christians tempted by homosexuality are doomed until they achieve perfection. If anything, the prevalence of that attitude is only going to encourage more Christians to give up and surrender to their desires, since we're basically teaching them that they're damned either way. I may have permanently driven a high school friend away from Christ because of my lack of sensitivity to his struggle with homosexuality -- it hurts me to think about it, and I never want to see that happen again.

It would be good to say that God may never take away a believer's inclination towards homosexuality, but those who still practice homosexuality were never saved in the first place. Just like a believe may be drawn (not act upon consistently) to lust, lie, or disobey his parents so it is the same with a believer who may have been a homosexual. The fleshly desire is still there, but God makes the way out of that temptation to glorify Himself in His child.

[OiBoyz]

Originally Posted by WorshipJesus

but those who still practice homosexuality were never saved in the first place.

Seriously? I don't agree with this at all. I don't know a single believer who is sinless. I'm certainly not. So I guess I was never saved to begin with.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by WorshipJesus

It would be good to say that God may never take away a believer's inclination towards homosexuality, but those who still practice homosexuality were never saved in the first place. Just like a believe may be drawn (not act upon consistently) to lust, lie, or disobey his parents so it is the same with a believer who may have been a homosexual. The fleshly desire is still there, but God makes the way out of that temptation to glorify Himself in His child.

did you ever disobey your parents as a believer? Lie?

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

Seriously? I don't agree with this at all. I don't know a single believer who is sinless. I'm certainly not. So I guess I was never saved to begin with.

I have to disagree as well. Sinners are exactly who Jesus wants. In fact that is the whole point. As Luther said, "Christ dwells only with sinners."

[bravesfan007]

Originally Posted by WorshipJesus

It would be good to say that God may never take away a believer's inclination towards homosexuality, but those who still practice homosexuality were never saved in the first place.

I am also one of the ones to disagree with the comment. Could you have meant maybe? I mean, I've heard that argument before and I could see the rationale behind it, but you can't say they were never saved.

[rock_show_host]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

Seriously? I don't agree with this at all. I don't know a single believer who is sinless. I'm certainly not. So I guess I was never saved to begin with.

Agreed 100%. To quote my earlier post:

Originally Posted by rock_show_host

It sometimes seems as though the church holds those with homosexual temptations to a higher standard than those with any other types of sinful inclinations, suggesting that if a gay Christian truly had a heart for God, he wouldn't even need to battle those temptations, let alone give into them. To me, that's a hurtful and dangerous way to minister, because it basically preaches that Christians tempted by homosexuality are doomed until they achieve perfection.

WorshipJesus, your post feels a little like an example of what I'm talking about -- judging those with homosexual struggles more harshly for their sins than we would for any of our own. If this isn't what you intended, could you maybe clarify? Because it looks like I'm not the only one who read it that way.