[beanbag]

you know, in the Song of Solomon, people are urged not to awaken love before it is ready. "ready" can mean too young and it can also mean too uninclined at the present moment, so don't think I'm coming down on you because of your age. I may sound a bit strict, but I do not think it is a good idea to pursue anyone romantically until you are seriously ready to marry them. otherwise, all sorts of confusion and trouble can arise. as some other people have said, if you mention to this girl that you like her, your relationship will never be the same. you can't take back things that you say, and if you're not ready to date because neither of you are allowed to date, it will most probably create tension and awkwardness between you two.

patience is a virtue, and in our modern culture of instant gratification, it is a virtue that is quickly being lost. we aren't taught to wait for things anymore. what does Paul say in his letter to the Corinthians? Love is patient. my advice, especially as a girl who was once 14, is this: if you really like her that much, you will be patient and wait for her, and not rush to awaken love before it is ready.

you may do with my advice as you will. =)

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by Rainer.

I do. I think by telling her how you feel, you would be implicitly defining your relationship with her, and therefore violating the boundaries your parents have created (including unnecessary complication). I do think your feelings are valid, and attempting to convince yourself otherwise is not going to work, but I still think sharing those feelings with her would be starting a romance that cannot exist for the time being.

Jon, I hope you know I like you and respect you. So please don't take my disagreement and pickiness personally.

You say telling her how he feels would be *implicitly* defining the relationship, but the truth is that it would be *explicitly* defining the relationship. Implicit is when something is implied but not said, and explicit is when something is said.

I'm not just being picky for the sake of being picky. I think the whole point is that this relationship, if it isn't already, is likely to become implicitly defined whether or not it is ever explicitly defined. What I mean is that people get crushes and people aren't as blind as they think they are. The chances are good if you're really close friends with someone, like them, and think they might like you, *they do*. If I'm right about this, then he likes her, she likes him, and they both basically know that they like each other. This implicitly defines a relationship. The relationship doesn't have to be explicitly defined to exist.

They almost certainly treat each other differently at this point from their other friends. They're more intimate (I don't mean that in a sexual way). They spend more time together. This is all just guesswork, but I've seen it plenty of times. If I'm right (and Dan can confirm one way or the other), then they are already in a relationship to some degree. There is no way to avoid "starting a romance that cannot exist". It already exists. It's just implicit rather than explicit.

I may be overreacting based on personal experience (I've been hurt by an implicit relationship and corresponding unfulfilled expectations), but as you probably know, this is something I've thought about over a long period of time, hence modding this forum for a long time. I was once big into Josh Harris and the anti-dating world, but I don't think that's really the way to go precisely because of this implicit/explicit issue.

The problem with having an undefined relationship is that neither person knows what to expect or how to act. Can the other person start dating someone else without first "breaking up"? Is it ok to hold hands? Kiss? Who knows. Without some sort of definition to the relationship, there is no context to make these decisions.

Being explicit probably will deepen the relationship (which I would contend already exists to some degree), so that is something that needs to be taken into account, but I think a relationship that isn't defined probably shouldn't exist. If the relationship isn't going to be defined, then they need to really be just friends. If they can't truly be just friends without any extra intimacy, then that extra part of the relationship needs to be defined to provide a context for making decisions on how to proceed.

There is a phrase that I picked up from the anti-dating world, "intimacy without commitment", that I like to repurpose for my new pro-dating (or rather pro-making-the-relationship-explicit) views. The anti-dating camp says dating is intimacy without commitment since it's not a "real" commitment like marriage or engagement, but the fact of the matter is that an implicit relationship is most definitely intimacy without commitment. There isn't even an acknowledgement of a relationship, so there certainly can't be commitment to it.

If there is going to be intimacy, then there needs to be definition, decisions on how to proceed, and commitment.

---

So to Dan, my advice is this:

Tell her you like her (it's not as scary as it seems) and ask if she likes you too (assuming she doesn't come right out and tell you she does, which isn't too unlikely). If she does, tell your parents about the situation. Tell them that you like each other and that while you want to respect their wishes not to date, you want to be able to put a name on the relationship that you have and define boundaries and expectations for it. Ask for their help in that.

Good boundaries at this point would probably be things that would cause the relationship to go deeper than you're ready for (or allowed). It may be good to set a boundary of no prolonged hugs and no holding hands. It may also be good to set a boundary of not saying "I love you" or "I like you" on a regular basis since it will reinforce the intimacy and thus deepen it. Actually, you summed it up well with "informed friends." The boundary can be not to do anything that friends wouldn't do.

This would also take care of your worries of her finding someone else, because you can explicitly address this. You can say that it's ok for one of you to become interested in someone else on some condition. Maybe you just have to tell the other person. Maybe it's not ok at all and it would amount to cheating. Maybe it would mean "breaking up" first. It all depends on how you define the relationship, but I think it would be good to have this issue defined.

Defining and then limiting the relationship won't be easy because intimacy has a tendency to increase rather than decrease. Informed friends that really like each other want to become more than just informed friends. That's natural. That's why I think it's so vital to define the relationship and be explicit about your intentions and boundaries. If you just let nature take its course by not defining anything or setting any boundaries, then the intimacy is just going to increase.

[OiBoyz]

You make some good points. And if both parties were older, might be ok. But both of the people in this scenario are very young. One is barely legal to drive, and the other is just barely a teenager. I would like to suggest at least one caveat. Talk to your dad first, Mosh. Not necessarily your mom, she will probably overreact and ban you from having any contact with this girl. Talk man to man with your dad, and follow his advice. Even if you don't like it.

You don't have a right to ask her to go against her parents, which is what having this conversation would do. I'm a girl, so let me clue you in on a girl truth: the guy you like automatically has more sway and authority than your own family. I think it's hard wired. And in the context of marriage, works really well. Otherwise, you're setting her up for a rebellion very early that could hurt her in ways you can't even imagine. If you really like her, don't drop this bomb in her lap without clear guidance from your folks (minimally) and preferably her folks.

[Folk_guy]

I personally think that continuing a close personal friendship is the most you should consider at this time. 14 is very young, and telling her how you feel might tempt you both to go beyond the boundaries your parents have set for you. If her parents were to find out about your romantic feelings toward their 14 year old daughter they might very easily want you to not see her even as a friend. Get to know her and do things with her as a friend. In reality there isn't all that much difference between, dating someone and being a close friend. My wife of 30 years and I started out as friends we met when I was 16 and she was 20. We started dating when I graduated High school, and were married while I was in the Navy. A strong friendship is what paves the way to a lasting romantic relationship.

[tmlfan123]

Can I cite personal experience here? I had a similar situation when I was the same age as you. Wonderful girl, wonderful heart for God. Wrong time. After a while, it became obvious to both of us where this was headed, and I knew it was against my parents' wishes. In the notebook I usually use for writing songs, I still have a little blurb I wrote after we actually told each other how we felt. I said, "What am I supposed to do, ignore all emotion? I can't. We're so alike and it feels so right." It was true, but it was terrible timing. We had a good time of it for a while, and then my mind started to wander and I realized that I didn't like her as much as I thought I did. I told her, and that basically started a year of not speaking to each other. It wasn't that we hated each other at all, but there was an avenue of communication that suddenly seemed to be closed to us. To be honest, I didn't miss her at all. Finally this year we've been able to hang out again as friends, but it took a while. I'm not saying that this is exactly how it's going to turn out for you, but there is a good chance. Don't ruin your friendship for the sake of romance.

If it's the real deal, it's still too early. While I was interested in this girl, I seriously neglected other friendships because of it. This will affect a lot of your life. I wasted time in school daydreaming about her, thinking about her, etc. Wait until marriage is in the foreseeable future. If she is "the one" for you, she'll still be around in five years. If she isn't, she's still your friend.

*wipe away sweat

PM me if you want to talk more.

[scared2mosh]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

They almost certainly treat each other differently at this point from their other friends. They're more intimate (I don't mean that in a sexual way). They spend more time together. This is all just guesswork, but I've seen it plenty of times. If I'm right (and Dan can confirm one way or the other), then they are already in a relationship to some degree. There is no way to avoid "starting a romance that cannot exist". It already exists. It's just implicit rather than explicit.

Yeah you are quite right... I didn't realize that I had made it so obvious until her older bro started making jokes about "us" when she wasn't around...

Also a few of her friends (who are rather nosey) have asked me if I liked her... I told them that that was between me and her, not me and her and them. Do you think that was a bad response?

So to Dan, my advice is this:

Tell her you like her (it's not as scary as it seems) and ask if she likes you too (assuming she doesn't come right out and tell you she does, which isn't too unlikely). If she does, tell your parents about the situation. Tell them that you like each other and that while you want to respect their wishes not to date, you want to be able to put a name on the relationship that you have and define boundaries and expectations for it. Ask for their help in that.

Good boundaries at this point would probably be things that would cause the relationship to go deeper than you're ready for (or allowed). It may be good to set a boundary of no prolonged hugs and no holding hands. It may also be good to set a boundary of not saying "I love you" or "I like you" on a regular basis since it will reinforce the intimacy and thus deepen it. Actually, you summed it up well with "informed friends." The boundary can be not to do anything that friends wouldn't do.

This would also take care of your worries of her finding someone else, because you can explicitly address this. You can say that it's ok for one of you to become interested in someone else on some condition. Maybe you just have to tell the other person. Maybe it's not ok at all and it would amount to cheating. Maybe it would mean "breaking up" first. It all depends on how you define the relationship, but I think it would be good to have this issue defined.

Defining and then limiting the relationship won't be easy because intimacy has a tendency to increase rather than decrease. Informed friends that really like each other want to become more than just informed friends. That's natural. That's why I think it's so vital to define the relationship and be explicit about your intentions and boundaries. If you just let nature take its course by not defining anything or setting any boundaries, then the intimacy is just going to increase.

Those are really good points... they kind of go along with how I already felt.

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

You make some good points. And if both parties were older, might be ok. But both of the people in this scenario are very young. One is barely legal to drive, and the other is just barely a teenager. I would like to suggest at least one caveat. Talk to your dad first, Mosh. Not necessarily your mom, she will probably overreact and ban you from having any contact with this girl. Talk man to man with your dad, and follow his advice. Even if you don't like it.

I think I'm gunna do that... he is a lot less jumpy about those kind of issues...

You don't have a right to ask her to go against her parents, which is what having this conversation would do. I'm a girl, so let me clue you in on a girl truth: the guy you like automatically has more sway and authority than your own family. I think it's hard wired. And in the context of marriage, works really well. Otherwise, you're setting her up for a rebellion very early that could hurt her in ways you can't even imagine. If you really like her, don't drop this bomb in her lap without clear guidance from your folks (minimally) and preferably her folks.

hmmm yet another good point....

Originally Posted by tmlfan123

Can I cite personal experience here? I had a similar situation ........ Don't ruin your friendship for the sake of romance.

That's my main concern because she is still awesome to hang out with and I would'nt want to ruin that

If it's the real deal, it's still too early. While I was interested in this girl, I seriously neglected other friendships because of it. This will affect a lot of your life. I wasted time in school daydreaming about her, thinking about her, etc.

yeah this has been a real distraction the last few weeks

Wait until marriage is in the foreseeable future. If she is "the one" for you, she'll still be around in five years. If she isn't, she's still your friend.

Indeed... it's all up tp God anyway.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by scared2mosh

Yeah you are quite right... I didn't realize that I had made it so obvious until her older bro started making jokes about "us" when she wasn't around...

Also a few of her friends (who are rather nosey) have asked me if I liked her... I told them that that was between me and her, not me and her and them. Do you think that was a bad response?

Not a bad response at all. It *is* between you and her and not them. As long as you said it nicely, you're good.

[Rainer.]

Re: RoachyDaniel

I've been bitten on both ends of this. There's 1) the undefined relationship that ends up hurting when one person crosses a boundary that was never defined, and there's 2) the defined "I-like-you-and-you-like-me-but-we're-not-dating-because-we-can't" that turns into a de facto committed relationship that is a just as unfavorable result.

Now, I can understand your reasons for disagreeing with my seeming to be a proponent of the first option, but I am not quite. The key to both is the matter of progression in a relationship.

The problem with the lack of definition to the relationship occurs when there is a progression to the relationship that happens while it is still undefined. If you plan to progress the relationship in any way, then it's a good idea to have it defined. If not, then either the relationship is precarious until defined, or something sometime is going to go terribly wrong.

Now, the reason why I am suggesting that not defining the relationship is a good idea, is because I don't think progressing the relationship is advisable. If the parents say the boundary is friendship, then the boundary must be friendship, and defining a relationship out of any friendship is going to be in violation of the boundary. I don't know precisely what Dan's parents' policy is on this, but I suggest he (you? I never know what subject relationships to make in these posts) find out.

The second situation is what might occur under progression of what you advised, Daniel. Now, it's not impossible to set up good boundaries, and effectively keep a friendship from turning to a romantic relationship, but what has to be mentioned with this choice is how purely difficult it is to prevent the progression of a relationship that has been defined, even with boundaries. I think "won't be easy" is quite the understatement.

An "informed friendship", as you put it, easily turns into a committed relationship, not necessarily in terms of physical boundaries crossed (which are easy to cross), but in terms of the emotional investment the two people involved will have in one another.

Either way, Dan has a proto-romantic relationship that has to stop progressing, either by pulling away without telling her his feelings (which I think may be a good plan if the relationship hasn't progressed beyond an average friendship), or by telling her his feelings which either has to lead to a difficult time of stagnation in the relationship (which would be four years, considering her age), or a regression to the closeness of the relationship, which would be a "break up", in essence.


So, no easy choices to make when it comes to wimmenz.

[bobthecockroach]

I think you did a great job, Jon, of capturing the essence of the issue. I think where we disagree is on which option is more likely to prevent an unintended progression in the relationship. I think, Dan, it would be good for you to look at both sides and see which one feels more right for you. Obviously, this is a personal issue that we can never give you 100% perfect advice on.

[scared2mosh]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

Not a bad response at all. It *is* between you and her and not them. As long as you said it nicely, you're good.

I did.. I just wanted to let them know that I cant stand the whole "Middle school style communicating through friends"... I think it's better to talk face to face...

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

I think you did a great job, Jon, of capturing the essence of the issue. I think where we disagree is on which option is more likely to prevent an unintended progression in the relationship. I think, Dan, it would be good for you to look at both sides and see which one feels more right for you. Obviously, this is a personal issue that we can never give you 100% perfect advice on.

Yeah you guys have both made excellent points... I think I'll talk to my parents (specifically my dad) and see which they think is the better option...

you guys have been very helpful... if you have any other thoughts I'd still love to hear them. I'll let you know what I decide to do... if I ever manage to


thanks again,
Dan

[OiBoyz]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

Otherwise, you're setting her up for a rebellion very early that could hurt her in ways you can't even imagine. If you really like her, don't drop this bomb in her lap without clear guidance from your folks (minimally) and preferably her folks.

I know, it's lame to quote myself, but I didn't add something that perhaps I should have. I speak from personal experience here. Not mine, but my older sister.

When she was about this girl's age, a boy who was quite a bit older took an interest in her. This started a chain of rebellion in my sister that eventually led to drug/alcohol use/abuse. She was a prostitute for a while and had who knows what diseases and was beat up badly twice that I know of. Since she was 15 (I was about 9) I've only seen her maybe a half a dozen times. She dropped out of our family and I haven't had any contact with her for probably 25 years. Would she have gone down the same path without this young man's "help" I don't know. But I do know it was the start of her downward spiral. I'm not trying to be melodramatic here. Just cautionary.

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

I know, it's lame to quote myself, but I didn't add something that perhaps I should have. I speak from personal experience here. Not mine, but my older sister.

When she was about this girl's age, a boy who was quite a bit older took an interest in her. This started a chain of rebellion in my sister that eventually led to drug/alcohol use/abuse. She was a prostitute for a while and had who knows what diseases and was beat up badly twice that I know of. Since she was 15 (I was about 9) I've only seen her maybe a half a dozen times. She dropped out of our family and I haven't had any contact with her for probably 25 years. Would she have gone down the same path without this young man's "help" I don't know. But I do know it was the start of her downward spiral. I'm not trying to be melodramatic here. Just cautionary.

I don't mean to downplay what you're sharing, but I think it's a stretch to blame this on a bad relationship. Even if the boy was directly responsible for getting her into drugs, she had the choice at any time to walk away. I think the cautionary tale then (and there is a good one here, so thanks for sharing) is that you need to know when it's getting to be too much and walk away. That doesn't mean you can't do anything though. Alcohol has killed probably millions of people but that doesn't mean it's wrong to drink; it just means you need to be aware of the danger and be careful. Same thing here. This can happen, and it does, but that doesn't mean you can't get involved with someone. It just means you need to know your own boundaries and stick to them. Don't compromise personal morality for a relationship (or anything else). Again, thanks for sharing.

[OiBoyz]

I realize that. And I think she would have walked the same path even without his influence. But this boy, who really didn't care about her at all, did nothing to help the 14 year old girl to make good choices. Granted, the choices she made as an 18 - 50 year old are hers, and her responsibility, but she was helped down that path very early on. And the Bible has a good deal to say about not causing your brother to stumble.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

I realize that. And I think she would have walked the same path even without his influence. But this boy, who really didn't care about her at all, did nothing to help the 14 year old girl to make good choices. Granted, the choices she made as an 18 - 50 year old are hers, and her responsibility, but she was helped down that path very early on. And the Bible has a good deal to say about not causing your brother to stumble.

I am just going to point this out. (re-emphasis mine) Not all boys, not all men, but that individual did something. That is not to say that there are not others like him, but not all others are like him.

The choices she made when she was 14-18 were just as much her as the choices she made 18-50.

So will this cause the young lady to stumble? Maybe, maybe not. We do not know, and that is simply the honest truth.

[scared2mosh]

I did talk to my Mom today about how close of a friendship I would be allowed to have and she told me group activities or maybe group "dates" (although not officially a date). However she didn't tell me whether we were allowed to tell the person how we felt or if it had to be an implied relationship... I'll try to bring it up to them on another occasion.

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

I realize that. And I think she would have walked the same path even without his influence. But this boy, who really didn't care about her at all, did nothing to help the 14 year old girl to make good choices. Granted, the choices she made as an 18 - 50 year old are hers, and her responsibility, but she was helped down that path very early on. And the Bible has a good deal to say about not causing your brother to stumble.

Well I can assure you that I care more about her (and my other friends) than that guy cared about your sister. I am not involved in drugs or alcohol nor do I ever intend to get involved in stuff like that (or any other illegal stuff for that matter).


I do however, feel like God told me today (and I believe he meant it very strongly) that, regardless of what my parents decision is on the matter, there is something in my spiritual life that needs to be taken care of (by way of having better accountability with someone) before I could even think of acting on my feelings. It isn't something that I think would somehow ruin her life, but I think what He meant was that if I cant be responsible when no one is looking then I am not as ready for a relationship as I think I am.