Metal Amp...

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-19-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bravesfan007

True, but I get by using the clean on my Dual Rectifier for what I need it. Most of the praise and worship stuff that we do I'll click over to that channel and switch on some chorus to add a little bit of texture and most people can't tell the difference. It's definitely not the best clean channel I have heard, but it works for me. I bought my amp for the other qualities and had to settle on the clean channel. I believe that's what is happening here.

Dual rec has a much better clean channel IIRC than a 5150. The 5150's is just darn near unusable as it breaks up so fast.

crazymoose · 10-19-2009, 08:17 PM

Ok... So I think I'm getting the YCV50 blue. I went to Long and Mcquade and tried it out (apparently they own Traynor or something so they're the only store in Canada that sells them). It sounded really good. I don't think I'll ever need more distortion unless I desperately need a cheesy, over-done metal sound.

So then I went back to Axe and returned the Vox. I figured I'd be nice to try and avoid that nasty 25% return fee, so I went and tried out a few amps I hadn't tried before. First one sounded like crap, second one was a Line 6 Spider, and well, speaking of over-done cheesy metal sounds... Turns out because I made an effort to look at their other stuff, and because I'd only had the amp for a few days, they gave me a full refund. Unfortunately Long and McQuade closed during all this so I get to drive down again tomorrow.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-19-2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazymoose

Ok... So I think I'm getting the YCV50 blue. I went to Long and Mcquade and tried it out (apparently they own Traynor or something so they're the only store in Canada that sells them). It sounded really good. I don't think I'll ever need more distortion unless I desperately need a cheesy, over-done metal sound.

So then I went back to Axe and returned the Vox. I figured I'd be nice to try and avoid that nasty 25% return fee, so I went and tried out a few amps I hadn't tried before. First one sounded like crap, second one was a Line 6 Spider, and well, speaking of over-done cheesy metal sounds... Turns out because I made an effort to look at their other stuff, and because I'd only had the amp for a few days, they gave me a full refund. Unfortunately Long and McQuade closed during all this so I get to drive down again tomorrow.

The YCV50 blue is a really cool amp. I like really heavy distortion. If you ever need more distortion, a treble booster was my favorite with the YCV50 blue.

**akaukal** · 10-19-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazymoose

Ok... So I think I'm getting the YCV50 blue. I went to Long and Mcquade and tried it out (apparently they own Traynor or something so they're the only store in Canada that sells them). It sounded really good. I don't think I'll ever need more distortion unless I desperately need a cheesy, over-done metal sound.

That's not true.. Every music store in Ontario sells Traynor.

However, good choice! You have a Jekyll and Hyde as well right? For all my metal tones, I don't even really use the drive of the YCV40. I just have the drive, treble, and mids on the Hyde side all at about 2-3 o clock while running the clean channel. You can get some wicked chugging tones.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-19-2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaukal

That's not true.. Every music store in Ontario sells Traynor.

However, good choice! You have a Jekyll and Hyde as well right? For all my metal tones, I don't even really use the drive of the YCV40. I just have the drive, treble, and mids on the Hyde side all at about 2-3 o clock while running the clean channel. You can get some wicked chugging tones.

The YCV 50 actually can put out a better one than the 40 or the Jekyll and Hyde IMO.

(And yes, I have owned a 50, a 40, and a J & H) I have not put a J and H with a ycv 40, but I ran my trinity's distortion channel, and my lil eagle through the 40, and neither quite gave me the 50's growl.

**akaukal** · 10-19-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

The YCV 50 actually can put out a better one than the 40 or the Jekyll and Hyde IMO.

(And yes, I have owned a 50, a 40, and a J & H) I have not put a J and H with a ycv 40, but I ran my trinity's distortion channel, and my lil eagle through the 40, and neither quite gave me the 50's growl.

Yeah, my buddy has a YCV50 and it definitely has more gain. But I'm not a fan of a huge amount of gain on metal guitars. I prefer more of a heavy crunch with more clarity. I record a lot as well and having a lot of gain when recording = muddiness, so I usually roll back the gain and just layer guitars. Unfortunately, I've always found that when I roll back the gain on the dirty channel of the YCV40, I lose the chug, but keeping it cranked just produces a muddy mess. To each his own, I guess.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-19-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaukal

Yeah, my buddy has a YCV50 and it definitely has more gain. But I'm not a fan of a huge amount of gain on metal guitars. I prefer more of a heavy crunch with more clarity. I record a lot as well and having a lot of gain when recording = muddiness, so I usually roll back the gain and just layer guitars. Unfortunately, I've always found that when I roll back the gain on the dirty channel of the YCV40, I lose the chug, but keeping it cranked just produces a muddy mess. To each his own, I guess.

a lot of gain when recording does not equal mud...

I own a soldano SLO 100 and it is anything but mud when cranked. The traynors have an insane amount of midrange on the crunch channel. That is great at low-mid gain, but if you are going to go fairly high gain, you need an accentuation on the treble frequencies to keep clarity, which is why I recommended a treble booster. It's easy enough to overcome actually.

Just layering guitars does not automatically give you more gain...

If I could mod the YCV40T to have more of a bright switch, I would, I think if it was a simple fix.

**akaukal** · 10-19-2009, 09:46 PM

A lot of gain when recording does equal mud.. Or at least that's what I've learned from experience and from school. That's one of the first things I was taught when recording distorted guitars. Not too much gain combined with mic placement is very important. If you ask the question on any forum such as gearslutz or The Gear Page, they'll tell you the same thing. You get ulitmately better results if the gain is backed off a bit. Besides, if the guitar sounds really great by itself, it's not going to sound great in a mix. It doesn't matter if you don't have a killer metal tone with a good high gain, what matters is that you have something that is going to fit well in the whole mix. Having a lot of gain is going to result in a muddled mess that sounds good by itself, but terrible in the mix.

Listening to a digital audio file of a mic'd amp is completely different than hearing the sound straight from the amp. If you stood in the room while I was recording something where I needed a good metal tone, you'd say my tone wasn't quite as good as it could be. But in the context of a mix, it'd be perfect. As far as layering goes, no it doesn't add more gain, it adds more guitar. It makes it sound bigger so you don't need so much gain. Quadtracked guitars with the distortion at 1 o clock is going to sound way bigger and heavier than two guitars with the distortion cranked.

From my experience and in my honest opinion, the best sounding guitars in modern metal recordings have plenty of mids, a moderate roll off on the low end, and a very slightly elevated high end.

crazymoose · 10-19-2009, 09:57 PM

I find the J&H doesn't give me enough distortion for metal. It's a great pedal, I really love it, but not for metal. I find the gain just isn't quite enough for me.

And regardless, I'm not recording, I'm playing live. I'll start messing around with quad stacking and what not if I ever get into recording.

And that's weird with the Long & McQuade thing. 3 separate music stores in Calgary told me I could only buy Traynor amps at Long & McQuade cause they owned it.

**jamforchrist123** · 10-19-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

No real clean channel could be a problem...

I just got a traynor ycv40t yesterday, (in trade for a pod xtl)

I would say the 50 has a fair amount more gain than the 40. However... with a wampler triple recstortion I was getting some very convincing metal tones...

The dirty channel, IMO of the 40 would take a treble boost to do metal.

Now why couldn't have I found a trade like that for my PODxtl

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-19-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaukal

A lot of gain when recording does equal mud.. Or at least that's what I've learned from experience and from school. That's one of the first things I was taught when recording distorted guitars. Not too much gain combined with mic placement is very important. If you ask the question on any forum such as gearslutz or The Gear Page, they'll tell you the same thing. You get ulitmately better results if the gain is backed off a bit. Besides, if the guitar sounds really great by itself, it's not going to sound great in a mix. It doesn't matter if you don't have a killer metal tone with a good high gain, what matters is that you have something that is going to fit well in the whole mix. Having a lot of gain is going to result in a muddled mess that sounds good by itself, but terrible in the mix.

Listening to a digital audio file of a mic'd amp is completely different than hearing the sound straight from the amp. If you stood in the room while I was recording something where I needed a good metal tone, you'd say my tone wasn't quite as good as it could be. But in the context of a mix, it'd be perfect. As far as layering goes, no it doesn't add more gain, it adds more guitar. It makes it sound bigger so you don't need so much gain. Quadtracked guitars with the distortion at 1 o clock is going to sound way bigger and heavier than two guitars with the distortion cranked.

From my experience and in my honest opinion, the best sounding guitars in modern metal recordings have plenty of mids, a moderate roll off on the low end, and a very slightly elevated high end.

I have taken a few recording classes myself.

However, a lot of good amps can be recorded very high gain and not be muddy. Traynors are the opposite of that.

I can attest that Megadeth, in flames, and a bunch of other bands have very distorted tones. Far more so than a ycv40t is capable of. Owing to the large amounts of low mids, they mud up pretty easy. I know, I gigged with a ycv50 for about a year.

And multi-tracking sounds fuller, but not heavier or more distorted. You do not get the same sizzle at lower gain. The distortions characteristics do not sound the same. You back off the distortion and it sounds less distorted, because it is. Thus, you will not get a really good metal tone at lower gain. However, there is a wall where you end up just adding noise. But at that point you are at really high gain.

A lot of times, what cuts in the mix is a lot of highs and upper mids.

An SLO 100 cuts very well with the gain on eleven. It does not mud up. A lot of gain does not equal mud. Too much gain for a particular amp does.

**akaukal** · 10-19-2009, 11:11 PM

I did say quadtracking didn't make it sound more distorted. But of course it makes it sound heavier. It's 4 tracks of guitars with the gain at about 3/4 of the way as opposed to say 2 with the gain cranked.

I'm not saying have the gain at 5 as opposed to 10. I'm saying have it at 7-8 as oppose to 10 to filter out some of the fizziness, which despite how good the amp is, still exists. I watched the documentary for In Flames latest album, "A Sense of Purpose", and they were using mainly 5150's for the distorted tones. The gain was close at 7 or so. And honestly, I've never thought their tones were that distorted. They've always sounded just a bit above a mid-gain tone.

I'm going to try to find one of the comparisons I did at school with a 5150 and a Triple Rectifier. We did an experiment that was pretty interesting.

*edit* In all fairness though, I've never used a SLO 100, so it could easily be an exception.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-19-2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaukal

I did say quadtracking didn't make it sound more distorted. But of course it makes it sound heavier. It's 4 tracks of guitars with the gain at about 3/4 of the way as opposed to say 2 with the gain cranked.

I'm not saying have the gain at 5 as opposed to 10. I'm saying have it at 7-8 as oppose to 10 to filter out some of the fizziness, which despite how good the amp is, still exists. I watched the documentary for In Flames latest album, "A Sense of Purpose", and they were using mainly 5150's for the distorted tones. The gain was close at 7 or so. And honestly, I've never thought their tones were that distorted. They've always sounded just a bit above a mid-gain tone.

I'm going to try to find one of the comparisons I did at school with a 5150 and a Triple Rectifier. We did an experiment that was pretty interesting.

*edit* In all fairness though, I've never used a SLO 100, so it could easily be an exception.

It is fairly well known for being ridiculously articulate. Without getting fizzy.

I am saying different amps have different thresh-holds where they mush up.

a 5150 tends to get as heavy as it gets earlier on the dial than most. I owned one of those for a bit. (5150 II actually, prototype)

The gain of 7 on a 5150 will be FAR more distorted than a YCV40 on 10. My SLO is more articulate than either all the way on 11.

The YCV40 does not seem like it would get buzzy or fizzy as high as the gain goes. Muddy, yes. Which is why an eq or a treble boost might do more than cutting the gain.

And more guitar does not sound heavier. Fuller, yes, but heavier can be a product of a more hollow, harsher sound, that is tamed by multi-tracking. Then again, I have been around the hardcore, and punk scenes since the mid 90s. Our definitions of heavy could be way different.

**akaukal** · 10-19-2009, 11:39 PM

I actually find the YCV40's drive is muddy and fizzy when recorded. I use it for some nice semi clean tones, but I can't stand the way it sounds recorded.

I think you may be right about the heavyness thing. I guess you're thinking maybe something like NIV and simliar bands? I was just thinking more along the lines of Becoming the Archetype and such, due to the OP's signature. It's definitely not as high gain. Just enough to get a good chug. That's sorta what I've been referring too: a more modern kind of polished metal tone.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 10-20-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaukal

I actually find the YCV40's drive is muddy and fizzy when recorded. I use it for some nice semi clean tones, but I can't stand the way it sounds recorded.

Mine has no fizz. I am thinking it might be tube set, speakers... but its missing a lot of high end. (I might add that mine was gigged for 5 years at least before I traded for it.) I think my speakers could really be throwing a damper on it and the previous owner went for smooth.

Quote:

I think you may be right about the heavyness thing. I guess you're thinking maybe something like NIV and simliar bands? I was just thinking more along the lines of Becoming the Archetype and such, due to the OP's signature. It's definitely not as high gain. Just enough to get a good chug. That's sorta what I've been referring too: a more modern kind of polished metal tone.

NIV is perhaps my all time favorite hard band. I saw them probably 30+ times live and was wearing one of my NIV shirts yesterday.

If you want to hear the multitracking thing, you can hear the difference from the tracks on to burn again over the tracks from no compromise. (there were a couple redone)

No compromise was single tracked in a living room.

Wheras when I think hard, I think a bit harder. And metal I don't think of the smooth lead tones, but of a really crunchy tone.