[JerryLove]

Evr since the federal govt. (both sides of the aisle) has gotten actively and fiscally involved in both medicien and higher education both systems have gotten to become a mess.

Medicine is worse than in the 1920s? So is higher education? How so.

Yes there have been new technologies and breakthroughs in medicine- but the more govt. has pumped cash into medical care the more expensive it has become.

So government involvement is the cause of high healthcare, even though governments with socialized healthcare have costs half ours?

Insurance is a wonderful thing but it also makes things more expensive because it passes the cost off to someone else- the insurer be they a porivate company or th egovt. Thereis no incentive to the patient to be frugal- the insurer pays. There is no incentive for the physician- they just bill out and receive payment.

So we should get rid of all insurance, and all government regulation.

What happens when a poor person gets sick?

Two examples of where medical costs have gone down are the two places that haven't beentouvhed by private or public ins.

Cosmetic surgery and lasik surgery- competition has improved the quality and reduced the cost.
Free markets seem to be working great here.

They are elective. Free market works great on non-essentials.

[Than]

Originally Posted by nolidad

So you do believe in death panels???? .

Please show me where the current legislation endorses/provides for "Death panels". The right screams about them as being part of any healthcare legislation, but I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever. (Other than Fox News talking heads)

[tlj009]

Please show me where the current legislation endorses/provides for "Death panels". The right screams about them as being part of any healthcare legislation, but I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever. (Other than Fox News talking heads)

Go back and read Bryan's and Jerry's posts (23 and 24). They basically lay it out accurately. There are and will be "death panels" determining what kind of treatment that will be paid for and for whom. The thing isn't whether or not this is done. The whole problem is that it is sensationalized by the term "death panels" as a way to oppose the bill. People don't really look for the truth behind something (like what Bryan and Jerry posted), they just hear "death panels" and it scares them to death. Then from the other side, they don't bother explaining their self (because truthfully not many people would like their explanation) so they just call the opposition a liar and move on. You end up with a lot of attacks without ever hearing a truthful debate on the issue.

[nolidad]

Well the Senate has created a hybrid abomination of a health care bill. Public Option with an opt out option. Big Deal!! If states opt out- the citizens still have to pay fed fines or taxes to cover those w/o insurance.

1. It cuts medicaid spending 1/2 trillion dollars over the next ten years (cutting senior coverage)
2. People have to pay for ten years for only 5 years of benefits.
3. It will run deficits (no major govt. initiative has ever not run red)
4. It will destroy private insurers.

Though I am sure there are many on the left who believe this is about making sure th euninsured have health care- for Reid, Pelosi, Kerry et al. This is about taking power away form the private sector and installing it into the halls of govt. This is just a bold faced power grab. I will not be surprised if Reid, because He will not be able to get 60 votes- uses the reconsiliation ption (which is supposed to be for just the whole budget) and ram this through.

[JerryLove]

Well the Senate has created a hybrid abomination of a health care bill. Public Option with an opt out option. Big Deal!! If states opt out- the citizens still have to pay fed fines or taxes to cover those w/o insurance.

You'll forgive me if I don't trust your synopsis.

1. It cuts medicaid spending 1/2 trillion dollars over the next ten years (cutting senior coverage)

So you are upset that government-socialst spending is reduced? I thought you opposed such spending.

2. People have to pay for ten years for only 5 years of benefits.

Any UHC should be in perpituity: though again you'll understand if I don't just take your word for it.

3. It will run deficits (no major govt. initiative has ever not run red)

Well, except social security (which is who the government has been stealing from to pay those other)... plus of course the entire government in 1999.

Though I'm not sure that your statement generally makes sense. Government agencies, generally, don't work that way.

4. It will destroy private insurers.

You say that like it's bad...

But how will a useless, non-profitable, does nothing for 5-years system adversely affect super-efficient, benevolent, everyone-wants-to-keep-it private healthcare?

Though I am sure there are many on the left who believe this is about making sure th euninsured have health care- for Reid, Pelosi, Kerry et al. This is about taking power away form the private sector and installing it into the halls of govt. This is just a bold faced power grab.

Really? Based on what? Who funds them again?

I will not be surprised if Reid, because He will not be able to get 60 votes- uses the reconsiliation ption (which is supposed to be for just the whole budget) and ram this through.

You never seemed to mind the Republicans doing that. I think it was you who defended Bush using the recess-apointment loophole to put in people he knew would fail to get congressional approval as proper process.

[nolidad]

Well the house and Senate both have a bill with a public option to it. The Senates allows you to opt out- but why would nayone want to? You would still have to pay even if your state isn't involved.

We should be forced to buy all major purchases the way the govt. is bamboozling the American Public on this bill. Start taxing and collecting fines right away but wait up to five years beofre the benefits kick in! Go buy a new car the same way! Sign the contract, buy the car, start paying 3.5 years of the 7 year payment plan beofre you get to drive the vehicle off the lot.

If you want to see what the govt. run option will do to the nation just look at Mass. and our universal health care.

Massive cost overuns.
Prioritizing care (yes rationing)
Decrease in doctor enrollment in Mass health
Group doctor visits--yes thats right 1 doctor sees 4-5 people all at teh same time!! This is what we have tro look forward to.
I almost forgot- the costs of theis health plan are imstrumental in the massive deficits the Mass. budget has had and noe the decision to lay off as many as 2,000 state workers.

If you do not think this won't happen on the national level--WOW!