[nolidad]

An interesting comment was made by Nate in a thread that has been closed:

This was surely taken politically by the Jews [give us back our land!] and we often follow.

We are quick to say "Aha! The Jews have returned to their land!", but that isn't Scriptural.

The NT is clear that the land of Israel is no longer the Promised Land. We have a new country.

The prophecy is fulfilled in the NT, under the new covenant, in which our country is not of this world.

Teh church is divided over whether God still has a plan for the nation of Israel and whether or not Israel belongs to the Jews by covenant.

I am one who believes the Bible to be dogmatic that Israel was prophesied to be removed from the ir land because of their rejection of Jesus, be scattered across the globe (the diaspora), and return again to the land in unbelief to be prepared to pass under the rod of His Judgment prior to the nation being saved.

From Jeremiah 31:

7For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

8Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

9They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

10Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

11For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Also: Ezekiel 37 is a declaration of the Lord that He will regather Israel back to their land and they would not be divided any more- and the nations of the earth would know that God has done it.

Also Romans 11:

especially- 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


I think it is crystal clear that once the full number of the gentiles come into th ebody of Christ- all Israel is to be saved.

[Epaphras]

I think they had a "generation" -- as Jesus said in Matthew 25 -- to accept their Messiah, and as a whole they failed to do so. Thus, in AD 70 (40 years or a "generation" after Jesus) God judged Israel (the OT version) once-and-for-all when the Romans destroyed the temple and scattered them as described/warned by Jesus in Matthew 24/25 and in Revelation -- which BTW I believe was written in the 50s not 95 and referring not to a future third temple but to the existing second temple, and Nero was "The Beast". From that point on, I believe the biological descendants of Abraham and the twelve tribes have no spiritual distinction from the rest of the nations.

So no, I don't think that modern Jews have a promised land. Well, they do, in the sense of the future-yet-present kingdom of God through Jesus, their true Messiah, just like the rest of us. It's not a physical location though, i.e. the modern secular nation-state of Israel. The bigger kingdom of God is what the notion of the promised land was pointing to all along anyway.

The creation of the nation-state of Israel, while understandable given the Holocaust, is still the greatest destabilizing force in the region. Before British colonialism which ultimately resulted in Israel, Jews and Arabs/Palestinians got along just fine. They even got along before the Europeans/Christians came in for the Crusades. All I'm saying is: we have to be careful how we speak about this, because the implications for peace in that region hinge on it. Palestinians have become the real victims here: victims of both abuses by the state of Israel, and victims of Islamic fundamentalism which a majority of Palestinians loath. Foreign fighters (Islamic extremists) launch missiles into Israeli settlements, and Israel bombs innocent Palestinian homesteads and kindergartens in return. The crazies have no stake in the region and are not even ethnically the same...they are Arab or Persian while Palestinians are Semitic just like Jews are. The crazies have adopted the Palestinian plight as their flagship but Palestinians now suffer from two tyrants as a result.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

I think they had a "generation" -- as Jesus said in Matthew 25 -- to accept their Messiah, and they failed to do so. Thus, in AD 70 (40 years or a "generation" after Jesus) God judged Israel (the OT version) once-and-for-all when the Romans destroyed the temple and scattered them as described/warned in Revelation -- which I believe was written in the 50s not 95 and referring not to a future third temple but to the existing second temple. From that point on, I believe the biological descendants of Abraham and the twelve tribes have no spiritual distinction from the rest of the nations.

So no, I don't think that modern Jews have a promised land. Well, they do, in the sense of the present-yet-future kingdom of God through the acceptance of Jesus, their true Messiah, just like the rest of us. It's not a physical location though, i.e. the modern secular nation-state of Israel. The bigger kingdom of God is what the notion of the promised land was pointing to all along anyway.

Well you are correct in stating that Israel was judged for their rejecting Jesus in 70AD even the Lord prophesied that in the Luke portion of the Olivet discourse.

You are also correct in stating that during the present church age Israel has no advantage over any gentile- we all enter in to the body of Christ by grace through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

But what say you of these prophesies where the Lord himself promises to restore Israel back to their land, and Paul declares that all Israel in teh future will be saved?

Also :

Acts 1 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Israel had been looking for the kingdom to be restored by their Messiah, this was as natural question th eJewish disciples of Messiah would ask. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to declare all the OT prophesies null and void. Instead He say8s that restoring the kingdom to Israel is in the Father hands and time but they were to be His witnesses. Jesu sdeclared it will happen- in Gods time.

[nolidad]

I know that dispensational eschatology has suffered much disrepute. Some of it self- inflicted by sensationalism by dispensationalists. However I believe the methodolgy of dispensationalism gives one the most correct view of looking at end times and the distinctions betweeen Israel and the church vs. allegorical methodologies and preterism. Given that we should keep an eye for a future attack on Israel that is led by Russia, and joined by the following nations: Ethiopia (or Iraq&Syria), Somalia, Iran,Germany and Armenia. This will fulfill Ezekiel 38&39.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I know that dispensational eschatology has suffered much disrepute. Some of it self- inflicted by sensationalism by dispensationalists. However I believe the methodolgy of dispensationalism gives one the most correct view of looking at end times and the distinctions betweeen Israel and the church vs. allegorical methodologies and preterism. Given that we should keep an eye for a future attack on Israel that is led by Russia, and joined by the following nations: Ethiopia (or Iraq&Syria), Somalia, Iran,Germany and Armenia. This will fulfill Ezekiel 38&39.

sigh

[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by nolidad

But what say you of these prophesies where the Lord himself promises to restore Israel back to their land, and Paul declares that all Israel in teh future will be saved?

Do you really believe EVERY Jewish person that has died since Jesus' time without accepting him as Messiah will be saved somehow? Why do they get to play by different rules (believe in him or not -- you'll be saved anyway) than the rest of us?

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

Do you really believe EVERY Jewish person that has died since Jesus' time without accepting him as Messiah will be saved somehow? Why do they get to play by different rules (believe in him or not -- you'll be saved anyway) than the rest of us?

No I do not believe that every Jew since Jesus time will be saved. Nor do I believe that a Jew can be saved apart from exercising faith in teh death, burial and resurrection of Jesus as the full and satisfactory payment for their sin and righteousness.



What I do believe the Scriptures says in summary is this:

There will come a 7year perios known as the tribulation that will begin when the figure dubbed the antichrist signs a 7 year treaty with Israel.

Halfway through thatr period He will violat ethat treaty, enter the rebuilt temple, declare himself god and begin an all out campaign to eradicate Jews and Christians (via the stigma or mark)

Jews from Israel will flee to the city of Petra in fulfilment of the Scriptures.

The antochrist willhave succeeded in murdering 2/3 of all Jews on the face of the earth in fulfilment of the prophecies concerning this.

He will marshall his forcesd at megiddo- and prepare to march on Petra as prophesied.

Israel will get saved as prophesied (the veil will be removed and the full number of gentiles will have come in as prophesied) and Jesus will return because Israel calls for HIm.

Jesus defeats teh antichrist as per Zechariah and revelation and restores the remaining Jews to Israel to rule as prophesied and covenanted with an everlasting covenant.

Now these are very brief summaries of details that are speeled out with many passages of Scriptures- if interested I can post the verses and even recommended readings as to why these must take place (and I am not talking about the left behind series- not even close)

sigh

Well Brian please feel free to not interact on this if it is that burdensome to you. I did not post it to cause you pain you know.

[LinkH]

Yes, God gave that land to Israel.

But notice that God held Israel to the covenant made with the Gibeonites under Joshua. I wonder if he will hold Israel to agreements made with the Palestinians. If the Israeli PM signs anything he should put some 'out' clauses in any treaties that if the Palistinians renigged on their end of hte bargain that the land goes back to Israel. Also, all deals are off at the return of the Messiah.

God gave the Edomites Mt. Seir. So if Palistinians are Edomites as some believe, their homeland is in what is now known as Jordan.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by LinkH

Yes, God gave that land to Israel.

But notice that God held Israel to the covenant made with the Gibeonites under Joshua. I wonder if he will hold Israel to agreements made with the Palestinians. If the Israeli PM signs anything he should put some 'out' clauses in any treaties that if the Palistinians renigged on their end of hte bargain that the land goes back to Israel. Also, all deals are off at the return of the Messiah.

God gave the Edomites Mt. Seir. So if Palistinians are Edomites as some believe, their homeland is in what is now known as Jordan.

It is interesting you bring this up! They did live in western JOrdan for years after manyy left at the request of their fellow Arabs in 1948. However teh king of Jordan tired of them and kicked them out because of their rabble rousing.

But the Palestinian people are more a homogenous blend of arab peoples. teh land did not come to be called Palestine until teh 2nd century after teh Bar-Kochba rebellion and Rome plowed Israel under.

[acrossthesirion]

So does...

"Nation of Israel" = the Jews
or
"Nation of Israel" = the modern nation-state called Israel

...?

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by acrossthesirion

So does...

"Nation of Israel" = the Jews
or
"Nation of Israel" = the modern nation-state called Israel

...?

the Nation of Israel = those who have faith in Christ and are chosen by God.

[tlj009]

So does...

"Nation of Israel" = the Jews
or
"Nation of Israel" = the modern nation-state called Israel

...?

"Israel" is referred to in different ways throughout Scripture. It is really going to depend on the verses in question.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Bryan

the Nation of Israel = those who have faith in Christ and are chosen by God.

Or like the Bible says- the nation of Israel are the children of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and the church are His people who are called out of both Jews and gentiles.

God is not done with the physical nation of Israel. Genesis, Deuteronomy, Ezekile, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Joel, Zephaniah, Amos, Daniel, Matthew, Luke, Romans, Acts, and Revelation are all very clear on that.

So does...

"Nation of Israel" = the Jews
or
"Nation of Israel" = the modern nation-state called Israel

Both!

"Israel" is referred to in different ways throughout Scripture. It is really going to depend on the verses in question.

Well it is referred to in two ways, context always determines which one is being referred to.

Physical Israel- the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Spiritual Israel- two verses that verify this "Not all Israel is of Israel, And "to the Israel of God".
Romans 9:6-- Galatians 6:16 also Romans 11:1-2 are powerful to keep the church from being biblically called Israel or spiritual Jews.

[acrossthesirion]

Originally Posted by Bryan

the Nation of Israel = those who have faith in Christ and are chosen by God.

touche

If I was cool I would give an in-depth exegesis of Romans 11. Of course, I'm not cool, and at this point I'm mostly confused by it. So I'm just going to give an anecdote that is really just rumor (but I think sort of captures the issue)

When the theologian Karl Barth discovered that their was a Jewish theologian who was interested in his works he decided to meet him. Upon the the question of Jewish-Christian relations the man said "A promise from God is like money in the bank."

The entire Hebrew Bible is filled with stories of the Jews breaking their covenant with God, and God continuing to hold God's end.

The question then is what does it mean for Christ to fulfill the Law without abolishing it? What is the relationship between the "Old" and "New" covenants? What does it mean for us to be grafted on to the Olive tree?

Originally Posted by nolidad

Both!

On what grounds does the Israel of the scriptures refer to the modern nation-state?

[nolidad]

On what grounds does the Israel of the scriptures refer to the modern nation-state

?

Because the people and the land are under an eternal nconditioal covenant wih God. The people though having been in diaspora for over 1900 years have maintained their identity. the land was given to the nation through Abraham and reconfirmed through Isaac and Jacob. God foretold they would be cast into all the world, but in the latter days God would return His attention to Israel and restore them to the land He covenanted to them.

This does not mean that they are autopmatically saved- they still must trust Christ, but God is on th eprocess of gathering in the nation back to their land- to prepare them to pass under the rod of His judgemtn- to purge, cleanse and sanctify the nation as He promised He would.

The question then is what does it mean for Christ to fulfill the Law without abolishing it? What is the relationship between the "Old" and "New" covenants? What does it mean for us to be grafted on to the Olive tree?

Christ, as representative head of all mankind- met all the conditions of th elaw- so in Him all the requirements of the law are fulfilled which is why in Romans Paul could write- Christ is the end of the law for rightousness to them that believe.

The Old covenant is the Law. The New Covenant is grace because the Law has been fulfilled. The Old forshadows the new.

TYhe Olive tree is the place of covenant blessing. As Paul said in Ephesians 2 we gentiles were alienated from th epromises have now been brought close by the blood of Jesus. So we have been grafted in to the place of covenant blessing.