[Travis]

Originally Posted by nolidad

An interesting comment was made by Nate in a thread that has been closed:



Teh church is divided over whether God still has a plan for the nation of Israel and whether or not Israel belongs to the Jews by covenant.

I am one who believes the Bible to be dogmatic that Israel was prophesied to be removed from the ir land because of their rejection of Jesus, be scattered across the globe (the diaspora), and return again to the land in unbelief to be prepared to pass under the rod of His Judgment prior to the nation being saved.

From Jeremiah 31:



Also: Ezekiel 37 is a declaration of the Lord that He will regather Israel back to their land and they would not be divided any more- and the nations of the earth would know that God has done it.

Also Romans 11:

especially- 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


I think it is crystal clear that once the full number of the gentiles come into th ebody of Christ- all Israel is to be saved.

I DO NOT believe that the Bible actually sanctions the Israeli murders of Palestinians. Even though I don't believe in the Bible. What the Israelis are doing is MURDER. They kill innocent people and they do it in the name of their "god" who "gave them land" (obviously an ethno-centric piece of ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺). They murder for land that "god" allegedly gave them. They kill women and children. THEY are the real terrorists. And stupid Christian eschatology is enabling them. This must be stopped. It's murder, and premillennial Christian ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ is only helping them perpetrate these murders.

[LinkH]

Originally Posted by Travis

I DO NOT believe that the Bible actually sanctions the Israeli murders of Palestinians. Even though I don't believe in the Bible. What the Israelis are doing is MURDER. They kill innocent people and they do it in the name of their "god" who "gave them land" (obviously an ethno-centric piece of ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺). They murder for land that "god" allegedly gave them. They kill women and children. THEY are the real terrorists. And stupid Christian eschatology is enabling them. This must be stopped. It's murder, and premillennial Christian ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ is only helping them perpetrate these murders.

Slaying in warfare is not the same thing as murder. The commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' is about murder, not killing in battle.

And God was just in ordering the death of the Canaanites and other wicked idolatrous tribes people.

Palestinians are believed by some Jews and Palestinians to be Edomites. The Bible says God gave Mt. Seir to the children of Edom. Why don't they move to Jordon?

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Travis

I DO NOT believe that the Bible actually sanctions the Israeli murders of Palestinians. Even though I don't believe in the Bible. What the Israelis are doing is MURDER. They kill innocent people and they do it in the name of their "god" who "gave them land" (obviously an ethno-centric piece of ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺). They murder for land that "god" allegedly gave them. They kill women and children. THEY are the real terrorists. And stupid Christian eschatology is enabling them. This must be stopped. It's murder, and premillennial Christian ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ is only helping them perpetrate these murders.

Well you are entitled to think whatever you want. Its obvious you do not berlieve Jews have a right to self defense against people who have vowed to exterminate them Nor does it appear you think it wrong that thousands of rockets and mortar shells are lobbed into Israel from Palestinian territory. Okay then.

Slaying in warfare is not the same thing as murder. The commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' is about murder, not killing in battle.

And God was just in ordering the death of the Canaanites and other wicked idolatrous tribes people.

Palestinians are believed by some Jews and Palestinians to be Edomites. The Bible says God gave Mt. Seir to the children of Edom. Why don't they move to Jordon?

Believe it or not many Palestinians did live in western JOrdan for a long period until they were kicked out of the country for their rabble rousing.

[milkmandog]

Originally Posted by Travis

I DO NOT believe that the Bible actually sanctions the Israeli murders of Palestinians. Even though I don't believe in the Bible. What the Israelis are doing is MURDER. They kill innocent people and they do it in the name of their "god" who "gave them land" (obviously an ethno-centric piece of ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺). They murder for land that "god" allegedly gave them. They kill women and children. THEY are the real terrorists. And stupid Christian eschatology is enabling them. This must be stopped. It's murder, and premillennial Christian ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ is only helping them perpetrate these murders.

Not only that many Palestinians are Christians. So by backing Israel we are backing Israel in the killing and displacement of our brothers and sisters in Christ

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by milkmandog

Not only that many Palestinians are Christians. So by backing Israel we are backing Israel in the killing and displacement of our brothers and sisters in Christ

Wow and many Jews living in Israel are Christians! So when we speak against Israel defending itself from over 1000 rocket attacks /year as well as suicide murderers we are supporting Palestinian Muslim murderers killing our Jewish brothers and sisters who are believers. I think that is called a draw in chess.

Also let us not forget- when Egypt when against the Muslim grain and made peace with Israel- it has worked well for them. Their relationship with Israel is a prosperous one with both sides reaping many benefits in mnay areas. Its amazing- Israel was weilling to give the Paelstinians under Arafat and then under Abbas over 90% of their demands and they walked away from the table. Lets also remember that before this latest quarentine by Israel- It has been the Israeli state that has provided more humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people than all the arab contries combined! Who cares more then for th epalestinians. Even when they are ready to go into an area militarily- they drop flyers warning the civilians to leave before they start their action. Its hard when the PLO and Hamas hide behind civilians to fight their wars.

[Luke]

This discussion is a conflation of a civil discussion about the rights and responsibilities of a sovereign nation that happens to be named "Israel", as opposed to an ecclesiastical discussion about the role and meaning of Biblical Israel in the eyes of God. Combining those things is likely to lead to murky waters.

At the moment, the civic debate seems to be the more interesting one, and I'd like to weigh in some.

First, the religion of the various combatants is not particularly relevant. Whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or worship my cats (they're so cute!), they are all human beings. There's been discussion about how one side or the other may be killing Christians, but I can't discern any Biblical reason why killing a Christian is any worse than killing someone who is not a Christian.

Second, a question to provoke thought: At what point do the Israelis have the right to defend themselves? The current UN condemnation actually states that Israel's actively being attacked with missiles (not under dispute) is insufficient justification for self-defense (I'll hunt down a link if necessary; it was a couple months ago). I also have yet to hear an argument from Israel stating that it has the right to kill Palestinians for religious reasons. Generally the refrain over there has something to do with, "The ****ers are shooting missiles at us all the time." And, while the UN doesn't see that as sufficient justification for military action, I do. And, I expect most Americans would as well, if America were the target.

That is not, of course, to say that Israel is guiltless. But, I do tend to support a stalwart ally in the region committed to the freedom and defense of its people.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Luke

This discussion is a conflation of a civil discussion about the rights and responsibilities of a sovereign nation that happens to be named "Israel", as opposed to an ecclesiastical discussion about the role and meaning of Biblical Israel in the eyes of God. Combining those things is likely to lead to murky waters.

At the moment, the civic debate seems to be the more interesting one, and I'd like to weigh in some.

First, the religion of the various combatants is not particularly relevant. Whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or worship my cats (they're so cute!), they are all human beings. There's been discussion about how one side or the other may be killing Christians, but I can't discern any Biblical reason why killing a Christian is any worse than killing someone who is not a Christian.

Second, a question to provoke thought: At what point do the Israelis have the right to defend themselves? The current UN condemnation actually states that Israel's actively being attacked with missiles (not under dispute) is insufficient justification for self-defense (I'll hunt down a link if necessary; it was a couple months ago). I also have yet to hear an argument from Israel stating that it has the right to kill Palestinians for religious reasons. Generally the refrain over there has something to do with, "The ****ers are shooting missiles at us all the time." And, while the UN doesn't see that as sufficient justification for military action, I do. And, I expect most Americans would as well, if America were the target.

That is not, of course, to say that Israel is guiltless. But, I do tend to support a stalwart ally in the region committed to the freedom and defense of its people.

AMEN!!!! With Israel it is not about religion- its about the right to exist in peace within their borders. Jordan and Egypt have profited and grown because of ceasing hostilities with Israel. If the Palestinians could learn that then they would have a profitable society.