[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I hate when I hear the stories of the millions losing their jobs. It wrenches your gut to know fellow citizens are suffering because of the greed and corruption of both sides of the political aisle, big business and big unions and even folks themselves.

Darn that free-market economy. If only we had had Republican leadership the last 8 years.

This bodes horrendously for us all.

How so? Were the Euro and Yen horrendous yesterday?

Also given that teh finance committee recommended out their version of the health bill (which isn't even written yet) and is the least expensive of all the bills and mandates masive medicare cuts and massive tax increases if you have a decent health plan- We are screwed for a long time to come.

That's right. You hate the most expensive for being expensive and the least expensive for cutting spending.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Also given that teh finance committee recommended out their version of the health bill (which isn't even written yet) and is the least expensive of all the bills and mandates masive medicare cuts and massive tax increases if you have a decent health plan- We are screwed for a long time to come.

I've learned to not trust your summary of any piece of legislation that comes through congress.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Bryan

I've learned to not trust your summary of any piece of legislation that comes through congress.

Well thats your privilege, go look it up for yourself and findout I am reporting facts.

This bill isn't even written yet and has been voted outof committee to teh flor.

It mandates over $445 billion in madicare cuts over ten years.

Up to a forty % tax on "cadillac" health plans

mandated coverage for all or pay a fine.

And the CBO plotted this plan out for 20 years and the costs just simply skyrocket.

Also this plans taxes go into effect in 2010 and most benefits do not start till 2013. If there is such a big rush to get UHC passed- why does this plan wait three years to get nearly everyone enrolled?

Once again don't take my word for it- go look it up.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well thats your privilege, go look it up for yourself and findout I am reporting facts.

Some are even true.

This bill isn't even written yet and has been voted outof committee to teh flor.

There is a written bill out of committee. It's bound to get changed on the floor.

It mandates over $445 billion in madicare cuts over ten years.

I'm not gonna go look that one up. I'll be generous and assume that Noli's number is correct. Uninteresting, but correct.

Up to a forty % tax on "cadillac" health plans

*Very misleading*

If you are bing given healthcare for free (by your employer), and if that healthcare policy's costs are greater than $8k for individuals or $21k for families, then the amount over that max will be taxed as income... because it is.

I believe, like many other incomes (inheritence comes to mind), it's taxed at a seperate rate from your general income.

So if your employer gives you, for free, a $9,000 per year individual policy, then you would be taxed up to $350 per year for it.

mandated coverage for all or pay a fine.

Obvious and the only way UHC can be done.

And the CBO plotted this plan out for 20 years and the costs just simply skyrocket.

I'd bet they are even bigger over 10,000,000 years!!!

Of course, the CBO also calculated a reduction in per-capita healthcare costs. You like to gloss over that.

Also this plans taxes go into effect in 2010 and most benefits do not start till 2013. If there is such a big rush to get UHC passed- why does this plan wait three years to get nearly everyone enrolled?

How long will not passing it take to get everyone covered?

But you are right. This isn't the right plan. The right plan has universal coverage and a single payor. That is what is supported by 60% of Americans and 70% of doctors.

But hey. Why let the American people, and doctors, tell us how medicine should be run. We have the insurance companies to look out for our best interest.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well thats your privilege, go look it up for yourself and findout I am reporting facts.

This bill isn't even written yet and has been voted outof committee to teh flor.

It mandates over $445 billion in madicare cuts over ten years.

Up to a forty % tax on "cadillac" health plans

mandated coverage for all or pay a fine.

And the CBO plotted this plan out for 20 years and the costs just simply skyrocket.

Also this plans taxes go into effect in 2010 and most benefits do not start till 2013. If there is such a big rush to get UHC passed- why does this plan wait three years to get nearly everyone enrolled?

Once again don't take my word for it- go look it up.

I didn't want this to be another thread on health care, because in reality this is just a minor problem.

with the fed. debt now approaching $12 trillion (almost $39,000 per american)

mortgage debt at over $14 trillion ( almost $46,000 per American)

personal debt at $2.5 trillion ($8,000 per American)

credit card debt at $891 billion (approx. $2,500 per American)

and with the unfunded liabilities of Soc. Sec., Medicare and the drug program at $105 trillon

America is in enormous serious trouble.

Teh dollar is plummeting and nations are dropping the amount of dollars they hold as foreign reserves and re placing them wiht the yen and the euro, we could see a huge bout of weimar republic type inflation within a year.

[JerryLove]

It seems to me a couple of years ago you were telling me how little of our GDP our deficit was and some other apologetics.

Yes. We are indeed in danger. Many of your supports are just partisan meanderings; but there is a real problem in the way the economy is structures: particularly the existance of an under and mis-regulated financial sector that's self serving rather than serving the real economy.

[nolidad]

The price of oil is continuing its creep upward. This time it is not because of speculators pushing the price up so much as it is the weakness fo the dollar.

This will cause gas, heating oil, some electricity to go up putting further pressure on an already weakened consumer. This will also cause further spending cutrs by people in nonessential goods- furthering the downward spiral of retailers and manufacturers.

Further stimilus funds would only further weakenthe dollar internationally, and if the fed tries to strenghten th edollar by removing the almost $2 trillion worth of currency printed when they monetized much of the new debt or if they start ramping up interest rates it will crush an already anemic recovery as foreclosures are still enormously high and bankruptcies are at historical highs.

The solution is a bitter pill, but teh fed will have to rein in spending, and actually create surplus budgets to pay down the enormous suffocating debt load. If not within a few years we could see the dollar collapse like Zimbabwe.

[Epaphras]

Originally Posted by nolidad

The price of oil is continuing its creep upward. This time it is not because of speculators pushing the price up so much as it is the weakness fo the dollar.

Or it could be that the economy is re-emerging, on its way up and out of the rut? The demand for oil and all that it does is going up, and since the supply is limited (and dwindling), the price goes up.

I just think that globally the U.S. economy is "too big to fail" as they said: a global collapse of the dollar would be bad for EVERYBODY, since EVERYBODY has at least some interest in seeing the American economy thrive, so everyone will work to prevent it. At least I hope so.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

Or it could be that the economy is re-emerging, on its way up and out of the rut? The demand for oil and all that it does is going up, and since the supply is limited (and dwindling), the price goes up.

I just think that globally the U.S. economy is "too big to fail" as they said: a global collapse of the dollar would be bad for EVERYBODY, since EVERYBODY has at least some interest in seeing the American economy thrive, so everyone will work to prevent it. At least I hope so.

6 yeares ago I would have agreed with you 100%, but wiht Iran opening a fourth oil bourse and focusing on non USD for trading, wiht Central Banks drawing down dollars in reserve and increasing their yen and the euro positions. that is now debatable. Would it hurt th e world economies? Yes it will! As much as in the past ? Maybe not. China has spread their markets out and have been growing their economy internally, Russia has rearisen economically, Europe though a basket case is diversed.

According to a new book I am reading by PHD Corsi- this is a concerted move to crush th eUS economy to create a EEU type North American market with the Amera(or something like that) as the new currency.

Oil demand is still down globally. Job l;osses are still occuring across the globe so manufacturing where it has increased is more for need replacement versus ramped up demand. Even the govt. cash for klunkers just took 6 months worth of new sales and compressed it down to a few weeks. Because it is bought and sold in dollars and the dollar is so very weak the price of oil is artificailly high.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

According to a new book I am reading by PHD Corsi- this is a concerted move to crush th eUS economy to create a EEU type North American market with the Amera(or something like that) as the new currency.

And after only 45 years Kenya has their agent in the presidency?

The weakening dollar is because we are printing more money. When inflation occurs more in one country than another, that countey's currency devalues relatively.

The conspiracy theory doesn't even make sense. No one would benifit from the collapse of the dollar.

[nolidad]

he next area that poses great risk not only for the US but the global economy as well is the derivatives market. This is an unregulated market that currently has over $670,000,000,000,000 dollars in the market (yes that is trillion).

Many economists freely admit that they do not fully understand the derivatives market. But it is a risk market where one entity takes out an "insurance" in the form of credit swaps and varies esoteric derivative instruments to hedge against the potential for enormous losses.

Teh most recent example of the amounts of money involved is the collapse of Merrill Lynch. July 2008 ML wrote down 9.4 billion in derivative losses. Even after they were absorbed by Bof A, Bof A had to ger almost $140 billion to cover the further losses from th e failed ML derivatives.

If the bubble in derivatives should burst worldwide markets would be forced to write down hundreds of billions and even trillions of losses that are tied into this market.

Many are hoping and even betting on the collapse of the global banking system in order to bring about the oft used "new world order". Notables like Henry Kissinger to Klaus Schwab are open advocates for a global ordewr with a unified currency. Others in teh west are opting for a North American zone (Canada, the US and Mexico) as an American style EEu first before the next step of a global economy unfolds.

The 1st Pres. bush was the most recent actice supporter of a NA-EEu and has been slowly promulgated since on both sides of the aisle Makwe no mistake America is technically bankrupt and one more straw could break the economic camels back.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

he next area that poses great risk not only for the US but the global economy as well is the derivatives market. This is an unregulated market that currently has over $670,000,000,000,000 dollars in the market (yes that is trillion).

So you think that the government should regulate markets as opposed to letting the free-market decide? Since your concern is global, you think we should have a global "new world order"-style regulator?

Many economists freely admit that they do not fully understand the derivatives market. But it is a risk market where one entity takes out an "insurance" in the form of credit swaps and varies esoteric derivative instruments to hedge against the potential for enormous losses.

I knew an accountant once that (he was on the news consulting on leases) many accountants don't understand leases.

I say they are in the wrong business.

Of course, if everyone understood derivitives market, it basically wouldn't exist. Look at my many rants that the stock market is the root of all evil... a "false economy" where nothing is produced.

Teh most recent example of the amounts of money involved is the collapse of Merrill Lynch. July 2008 ML wrote down 9.4 billion in derivative losses. Even after they were absorbed by Bof A, Bof A had to ger almost $140 billion to cover the further losses from th e failed ML derivatives.

That doesn't even begin to discuss the problem.

You are the new CEO of BofA. Your income is determined by profit / loss. If you just treat people who haven't paid you in three months and "not in default", then you have billions more on paper that you will ever actually see... profit for you.

Of course, the basic problem here is the stock-market ownership and running of such companies encourages such behavior.

If the bubble in derivatives should burst worldwide markets would be forced to write down hundreds of billions and even trillions of losses that are tied into this market.

That happened last year.

Many are hoping and even betting on the collapse of the global banking system in order to bring about the oft used "new world order". Notables like Henry Kissinger to Klaus Schwab are open advocates for a global ordewr with a unified currency. Others in teh west are opting for a North American zone (Canada, the US and Mexico) as an American style EEu first before the next step of a global economy unfolds.

Claims of fact. Where are your cites? Should I hold my breath?

And who? Kissinger was notable 30 years ago but now?

The 1st Pres. bush was the most recent actice supporter of a NA-EEu and has been slowly promulgated since on both sides of the aisle Makwe no mistake America is technically bankrupt and one more straw could break the economic camels back.

Prove it noli. Link be to Bush advocating the abolition of the dollar. The real advocate of such a thing is the book you are reading and, by advocating the book, you. See your first paragraph as proof.

[nolidad]

With real unemployment at 17% (this is the adjusted U-6 rate for September) it will be a bleak Christmas in America. This number is more important for comparison than the unemployment figure normally used (which is at 9.8% and climbing), for this track unemployment like for like with the 1930's before all the fancy gimmicks were created by both sides of th epolitical aisle to hide true numbers.

The reason why this is a frightening number is that we have no engine on the horizon tht will create an employment boom. In the 30's FDR used enorous deficit spending to keep the depression from ending and then the war came along and caused the economy to ramp up for war production. Which created the employment boom that pulled the economy out of that depression. We cannot go further into debt spending w/o the real probability of collapsing the dollar.

Th epromised green economy is more myth than meat. In reality first off solar and wind at the best will only be able to generate 18-20% of Americas electrical needs and that is a 45 year forecast. The problems are the NIMBY syndrome, the massive land needed, enviormental lawsuits against the se two energy forms (yes PETA and the sierra club are suing to stop green energy projects), the massive infrastructure needed to put any solar and wind farms on the grid, and the fact that wind does stop nlowing and sun does stop shining, how to integrate these intermitent energy sources and then what to do with the extra energy produced when not needed (most sources sell for a loss- the big example being Denmark), These may create tens of thousands and maybe even a few hundred thousand new jobs, but this is just a drop in the bucket compared to the continuing job loss occuring now.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

The reason why this is a frightening number is that we have no engine on the horizon tht will create an employment boom. In the 30's FDR used enorous deficit spending to keep the depression from ending and then the war came along and caused the economy to ramp up for war production. Which created the employment boom that pulled the economy out of that depression. We cannot go further into debt spending w/o the real probability of collapsing the dollar.

Fortunately we have two wars.

But yes: decades of free-market abandonment of America by all our "buy American" brands coupled with WalMart's buying tactics, coupled with a fear of aything that might be labeled "protectionism" coupled with a real economy driven by the under-regulated financial market (rather than the other way around), a culture of consumerism... we'll it's not good.

Th epromised green economy is more myth than meat. In reality first off solar and wind at the best will only be able to generate 18-20% of Americas electrical needs and that is a 45 year forecast.

Anyone casting 45 years ahead is a snake-oil salesman.

energy sources and then what to do with the extra energy produced when not needed (most sources sell for a loss- the big example being Denmark),

You cannot sell something you got for free at a loss... and before you do you'd just shut down that windmill (or disengage the generator from it)

These may create tens of thousands and maybe even a few hundred thousand new jobs, but this is just a drop in the bucket compared to the continuing job loss occuring now.

It's odd. You listed a lot of problems that, in the end, have job-providing solutions; then listed them as "bad" in an argument that included "doesn't make enough jobs".

Please support your numbers.

[nolidad]

Probably the last part of this thread dealing with the downward spiral of the american economy is the one that many love to mock the most- the irreversible march to regionalism and globalism. by this I mean a move to create teh North MAerican Union, Central American Union et al. with th eultimate goal of having a one world govt. With a single global currency. Both democrat and republican are involved in this, so both sides are culpable in working to the demise of American Sovereignty. As this topic could be multiple threads by itself, I will list a series of groups and organizations that can be looked up that clearly show that politicians, businessmen, unions et al are all involved to bring about the end of the nation-state.

Let me state here expicitly-- All of the se organizations do deal with very improtant and needed issues in an interconnected world. They perform improtant forums for solvomg many issues- but the goals are to end nation/state sovereignty for regional and/or global unity.

I list only those that Americans are actively involved in:

The Open Society
NAFTA
WTO
IMF
World Bank
Tri Lateral Commission
Council on Foreign Relations
Teh Bilderbergs
World Economic Forum
Presenti Group
Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America
Council of the Americas
Davos Forum
Transatlantic Economic Council
Teh Streit Council
Transatlantic Ploicy Network
Advisory Committee on INtl. Economic Policy.

These and others look for the day that America ceases to be an independent power and is absorbed in to the global collective.