[metropolis4]

I know I'm jumping in here late, but I wanted to make a point. I think that the thing we always forget to take into consideration when we talk about education is the parents and homes of the kids. In many cultures and groups in America there just isn't emphasis placed on education. My whole family are educators and have been for generations and the thing we always see is that the one thing that makes the biggest difference in a child's success in school is the support she/he receives at home. The time parents put into spending with their kids, teaching them, helping them learn and grow and the importance they place on education - not grades, but actual learning!

Unfortunately we have a school system that is run by too many people who are not educators, who do not have a good understanding of child psychology and child development. Thus they try to run education like a business. And the way to show results in business is through numbers. So instead of focusing on the quality of learning taking place, we look at test scores and numbers. We make kids take too many stupid, pointless tests that show nothing at all about what they know or have learned. Why? because the numbers make the administrators look good and help them advance up the ladder.

Also, longer hours is not the solution. Anyone who knows anything about child development and child psychology knows that kids need things presented in certain increments of time. The younger they are, the shorter these times have to be. Even teenagers and adults can't focus on something to learn for more than 45-60 minutes at a time. Kids, especially younger kids, also need those breaks. It is good for them developmentally. They need recess, they need extra curricular activities like music classes, they need time to socialze with friends, they need time to spend with their families, they need time away from school to pursue other things. By keeping them in the building for longer hours we will do more to hinder their development than to help it...

[Ax]

Education is a delegated power, NOT a federal power. The federal government has no business in schools, that is state domain. It wasn't right when Bush did NCLB, and it's not right now. It's unconstitutional.

[Fandrew]

Originally Posted by thesteve

It's interesting that the article quotes Obama as saying that kids need more school to catch up with other industrialized nations, yet the major Asian nations that consistently outrank the US in math and sciences have few school hours (up to 200 fewer hours) than students in the US.

Actually, there was a movement in the field of education roughly fifty years ago to focus on math and science, because America thought it was losing the space race. This was the initial fire behind the now infamous idea of "education standards" in various subjects.

Originally Posted by Bryan

whether we are trying to keep up with other nations or not, at some point, we will need to extend school in order to keep up with all the scientific and technological enchancements that keep coming. At some point, we'll have to make calculus part of the standard high school curriculum and some college level science courses will need to become part of high school curriculum.
.

I never took Calculus in high school or college. I don't see the issue here.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

In other words, we remove the concept of childhood.

True, but the institution of childhood is only about 100 years old.

Originally Posted by metropolis4

I know I'm jumping in here late, but I wanted to make a point. I think that the thing we always forget to take into consideration when we talk about education is the parents and homes of the kids. In many cultures and groups in America there just isn't emphasis placed on education. My whole family are educators and have been for generations and the thing we always see is that the one thing that makes the biggest difference in a child's success in school is the support she/he receives at home. The time parents put into spending with their kids, teaching them, helping them learn and grow and the importance they place on education - not grades, but actual learning!

Unfortunately we have a school system that is run by too many people who are not educators, who do not have a good understanding of child psychology and child development. Thus they try to run education like a business. And the way to show results in business is through numbers. So instead of focusing on the quality of learning taking place, we look at test scores and numbers. We make kids take too many stupid, pointless tests that show nothing at all about what they know or have learned. Why? because the numbers make the administrators look good and help them advance up the ladder.

Also, longer hours is not the solution. Anyone who knows anything about child development and child psychology knows that kids need things presented in certain increments of time. The younger they are, the shorter these times have to be. Even teenagers and adults can't focus on something to learn for more than 45-60 minutes at a time. Kids, especially younger kids, also need those breaks. It is good for them developmentally. They need recess, they need extra curricular activities like music classes, they need time to socialze with friends, they need time to spend with their families, they need time away from school to pursue other things. By keeping them in the building for longer hours we will do more to hinder their development than to help it...

In a way, you're right. However, some school administrators lean too heavily towards child development and educational psychology and strongly believe that each child should have its own standards for an education. In my experience, most Ed Psych classes dealt with completely impractical issues. Teachers are not the ones who need to understand how to correctly raise children. That job belongs to the parents, and also the students. In case, you didn't know, I majored in Secondary Education, and I feel high school students can and should take a lot of responsibility for their own educations.

Also, as an education professional, I do not approve of more hours in school.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by JayCarrFan

True, but the institution of childhood is only about 100 years old.

Not true.

Not even remotely true. It exists from before the medieval period, it exists in the ancient world as well.

Childhood is a concept as old as mankind, or do I need to cite biblical examples, along with some medieval ones?

[Fandrew]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Not true.

Not even remotely true. It exists from before the medieval period, it exists in the ancient world as well.

Childhood is a concept as old as mankind, or do I need to cite biblical examples, along with some medieval ones?

No, you need not. Allow me to rephrase myself. Childhood as I see it came about in the early twentieth century populist movement. When more child labor laws enacted, and more public education systems founded, children were no longer permitted to spend their days working in factories.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by JayCarrFan

No, you need not. Allow me to rephrase myself. Childhood as I see it came about in the early twentieth century populist movement. When more child labor laws enacted, and more public education systems founded, children were no longer permitted to spend their days working in factories.

I think more accurately though, adolescence has really only been around for 100 years. Yes, child protection is more recent, but the idea of kids going to school is quite old.

[Fandrew]

Originally Posted by thesteve

I think more accurately though, adolescence has really only been around for 100 years. Yes, child protection is more recent, but the idea of kids going to school is quite old.

Unless you're female...

[normajean777]

If the states is anything like the education system I went through, the cirriculum has been expanding about every 10 years, with no extra time to teach it. Thus they spend to little time on most things, need to remove some items when they add others, or add more hours to the school day.

Everyone who disagrees with Obama: What do you propose? Perhaps the current system is fine? Or you suggest other reforms?

[H.M. Murdock]

Nothing I've ever learned in any form of education has ever been "useful" at any job I've had, other than my background in communications. And that just means that I can walk into a room and talk to anyone I so choose.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by JayCarrFan

Unless you're female...

yet another myth. Need I cite things from 2000 BCE that speak of women in schools? Because I know where to find it.

The idea of children working in factories and being exploited that way dates from the industrial revolution more than anything else, and I see very small differences between that, and what is being proposed now for kids. Except we pay them nothing, rather than next to nothing.

[Fandrew]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

yet another myth. Need I cite things from 2000 BCE that speak of women in schools? Because I know where to find it.

The idea of children working in factories and being exploited that way dates from the industrial revolution more than anything else, and I see very small differences between that, and what is being proposed now for kids. Except we pay them nothing, rather than next to nothing.

I'm speaking of requiring education. As in, the way our current legal system dictates that a child must go to school until age 18. I'm a history major, I know that boys and girls have been in school for eons.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by normajean777

Everyone who disagrees with Obama: What do you propose? Perhaps the current system is fine? Or you suggest other reforms?

I don't think the current system is fine, but I also don't think that increasing the hours and days that kids have to spend in a generally broken system is going to make things better. Education reform starts with the parents actually caring enough about their child's education to spend time finding out what is going on with their child's schools.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by thesteve

I don't think the current system is fine, but I also don't think that increasing the hours and days that kids have to spend in a generally broken system is going to make things better. Education reform starts with the parents actually caring enough about their child's education to spend time finding out what is going on with their child's schools.

I think education reform starts with praents actually caring enough about their child's education to spend time with them at home instilling that value in them before they step through the doors of the school.
That and removing administration barriers that prevent teachers from doing their jobs the way they know how to do them. Honestly, so many teachers are forced to teach in ways they know are not effective and are contrary to everything they know about teaching because of administrators and tests

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

It isn't already?

I have experiece/knowledge with two education systems: British Columbia Math 12 and Queensland Year 12 Mathematics B both include single-variable differential calculus. I'm surprised it doesn't in the US.

it was offered at my HS but it was not required.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

How has high school level education prepared you for a job?

Quite a bit, actually.

1. In English I learned how to write.
2. In science classes I learned how to apply the scientific method (which is applicable to things more than just science)
3. In art and choir I learned art and music that helps me to think creatively.
4. In computer classes I learned basic computer skills which allows me to type efficiently, use Office products, etc.
5. In speach I learned basic communications skills that was the foundation for being an effective speaker.
6. In economics I learned basic economic principles
7. In debate class I learned how to formulate an argument

The classes that had the least impact on my preparedness for my job were history and football. But high school and even college aren't just about getting you ready for your job/career. There's more to it than that.

To think that high school level education didn't start your preparation for your job/career is asinine.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Kids have already lost childhood, and what has it accomplished?

huh? How have kids lost childhood?

[tlj009]

Everyone who disagrees with Obama: What do you propose? Perhaps the current system is fine? Or you suggest other reforms?

The current system does need some reforms. I think that we shouldn't put so much emphasis on higher level education. College is great but it is not for everyone. I don't even believe that it is for most of the population. What is needed is to improve access and expand programs in technical colleges. Teach skills. Set up apprenticships. The better part of the population will determine their career in life by the time they get out of highschool. It would help in the last two years of college if recieved their regular (or some of their regular) classes and also spent a half day learning a trade.

Louisiana has TOPS, which is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it would also be great to have a similar program to assist in paying for a technical colleges and trade schools. It would also be great to invest more money in expanding the programs at some of the existing technical colleges and trade schools. In other words, we need to expand the skilled labor workforce instead of the number of highly educated workers that can't even change their own lightbulb. Honestly, there are any number of plumbers, electricians, surveyors, general contractors, etc. that have only a highschool diploma and yet make more money and live better than most of the college graduates that I know. In fact, most of the people that I know holding doctorates are good for nothing except teaching.