[Nate]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

Yes.

Consumerism is above-and-beyond consuming to survive or to have some measure of a quality standard of living. Consumerism thrives in a capitalist environment, because their ends are the same. Or rather, if capitalism is the tsunami, consumerism is the surfer riding the wave all the way to the top. Consumerism goes past comfort and contentment to envy, greed, materialism, and "keeping-up-with-the-Jonses".

In a sense, consumerism/materialism are the spiritual side-effects of capitalism. We must weigh the pure economic benefits of capitalism against the great spiritual cost of the consumerism and materialism that come along with it. Consumerism and contentment are competing values in a capitalistic system. The Bible says to be content, and so the Bible stands in direct opposition to what the church of capitalism preaches.

I see it the other way around, really. Consumerism / materialism is the [only] foundation upon which capitalism can be built.

Capitalism exists because people have nearly limitless unsatisfied wants a very limited supply of resources with which to fill them.

Capitalism wouldn't work, and wouldn't exist, if people were content. It doesn't exist to make people content. It exists to fill their discontent.

The most basic premise of capitalism is that people act in their own self-interest to maximize their own well-being and the satisfaction of their wants.

Capitalism doesn't bring about evil; it exists because we are evil. It uses our evil, self-interest, to motivate people to do things for others they wouldn't otherwise.

No profiteer or arbitreur or entrepreneur would undertake the personal risks associated with their business endeavors if not for the promise of personal gain.

But without their endeavors, the only thing left to satisfy the needs [and the wants] of society would be private charity or government distributionism.

Capitalism takes the evil, self-serving profit motive and turns it on its head into something that can generate almost unlimited social well-being.

There are no economic benefits to capitalism if there is not also rampant consumerism. If we're content, we can be socialists all day long.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by Epaphras

Wal-Mart is not a good corporate neighbor -- what planet are you living on?!.

Wal-Mart is pure evil, period. The sooner we are rid of that abomination the better off the world will be...

I'm still trying to understand the big deal about this video...

[nolidad]

Consumerism is "the theory that an increasing consumption of goods is economically desirable" i.e. unnecessary consumption should be encouraged for economic growth. As such the people trying to sell you these things have an overriding fiscal incentive to get you to believe that purchasing their goods/services will make you happier. Most adverts you see feature people who're ecstatic, with the implication being that you'll be too. It's a charade.

In economics, consumerism refers to economic policies placing emphasis on consumption. In an abstract sense, it is the belief that the free choice of consumers should dictate the economic structure of a society (cf. Producerism, especially in the British sense of the term).

well there is no doubt that America is off the charts. We are th econsumption driven society.

BUT what alternatives do people propose?? Are we willing to assume 20-30% unemployment to cut back on consumption? If we make less goods- we employ less peolle, need less stores, less restaurants etc. etc. Do we go back to the little house on th eprairie as an agrarian society where all fend for themselves pretty much?

Wal-Mart is pure evil, period. The sooner we are rid of that abomination the better off the world will be...

Well the majoritty of people continually vote different. For the many troubles Wal Mart has had to deal wit corporately- people are mighty grateful it is there. We shop there. I like saving over %1.50 for country time lemonade over the next cheapest retail outlet. I like $5 radios.

My $30 walmart DVD player still works fine after 5 years!

[slap_j]

Originally Posted by nolidad

In economics, consumerism refers to economic policies placing emphasis on consumption.

i.e. unnecessary consumption should be encouraged for economic growth

BUT what alternatives do people propose?? Are we willing to assume 20-30% unemployment to cut back on consumption?

Why not just have the government subsidize them? At least then you're not encouraging seeking happiness in material things.

Silliness aside, propagate anti-consumerist philosophy such as the gospel. And no, I am not endorsing asceticism.

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Do we go back to the little house on th eprairie as an agrarian society where all fend for themselves pretty much?

Maybe it's just me... but that sounds pretty nice

[Than]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well the majoritty of people continually vote different. For the many troubles Wal Mart has had to deal wit corporately- people are mighty grateful it is there. We shop there. I like saving over %1.50 for country time lemonade over the next cheapest retail outlet. I like $5 radios.

My $30 walmart DVD player still works fine after 5 years!

How do they vote on Wal-mart?

It's attitudes like yours that have driven the true entrepreneur spirit in America (i.e. small and medium local businesses). They save money in part because they continually quash their employees attempts to unionize and protect themselves.

They also paid $11 million to settle out of court for what federal investigators say they were willfully and knowingly employing illegal immigrants.
Wal-Mart to Pay $11 Million (washingtonpost.com)

[jthomas1600]

Originally Posted by Than

How do they vote on Wal-mart?

It's attitudes like yours that have driven the true entrepreneur spirit in America (i.e. small and medium local businesses). They save money in part because they continually quash their employees attempts to unionize and protect themselves.

They also paid $11 million to settle out of court for what federal investigators say they were willfully and knowingly employing illegal immigrants.
Wal-Mart to Pay $11 Million (washingtonpost.com)

People vote Walmart by shopping there. If the majority of the people thought that Walmart was bad they would not shop there and Walmart would go out of business.

That's not the only reason small business suffers. I lived many years in a small town that fought off Walmart. One mantra that was repeated over and over was, "do you want to loose the personal service a small business provides". I thought the service at the mom and pop shoe stores, sporting good stores, clothing stores etc. really sucked. If you went in to the sporting goods store and your kid started for the high school basket ball team they fawned over you... at the expense of the regular guy like me waiting in line. Also, these small town stores didn't pay their employees any better than walmart and offered absolutely zero benifits.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by jthomas1600

People vote Walmart by shopping there. If the majority of the people thought that Walmart was bad they would not shop there and Walmart would go out of business.

in a perfect world yes, but we live in reality. And the sad reality is if a family of 4 is struggling to put food on the table and they can go to Mom'n'Pop Country store and pay $150 a week for food or go to Walmart and pay $100 for the same food, they're going to shop at Walmart, even if they think it is a bad store. I can afford to get my groceries at places other than Walmart, so I do, but not everybody has that luxury.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be jthomas.

[metropolis4]

- Wal-Mart's average employee can work a full 40 hour week and still be eligible for food stamps, medicaid, welfare etc
-In 2005 Chief Executive H. Lee Scott Jr. made over $17.5 million while the average employee made less than $14,000
-Wal-Mart factory workers in China make less than $3 a week after working more than 72 hours

It must feel good to buy that $5 radio and know that some person in China is slaving in a factory 72 hours a week making barely enough to survive so that you can have a cheap radio..

Not to mention it's predatory business practices...

Compare that to Costco who's average employee makes $17 an hour and is provided with affordable health care plans and 401k's while their CEO's annual salary is around $350,000.

(I don't know if I'm supposed to quote sources on here, but if so this information came from an article in the Denver Post on 11-22-05 by Cindy Rodriguez Smiley face belies Wal-Mart)

[jthomas1600]

Originally Posted by Bryan

in a perfect world yes, but we live in reality. And the sad reality is if a family of 4 is struggling to put food on the table and they can go to Mom'n'Pop Country store and pay $150 a week for food or go to Walmart and pay $100 for the same food, they're going to shop at Walmart, even if they think it is a bad store. I can afford to get my groceries at places other than Walmart, so I do, but not everybody has that luxury.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be jthomas.

I'd be curious to know what percent of Walmarts profits are derived from selling necessities like food. I'd be willing to bet they make most of their money on life's luxuries, like DVD players, computers, sporting goods etc. In fact many Walmarts don't have grocery sections at all. And while I know Walmart provides a lot of cheap clothes, so do thrift stores.

[metropolis4]

I forgot to mention the legal issues of Wal-Mart. They are continually sued more than any corporation in America. They continually have law suits regarding sex discrimination, child labor, unfair wages, illegal union busting practices, Violating the American's with Disabilities act etc...

When employee's vote against Wal-Mart they are crushed. In Texas, butchers from Wal-Mart voted to form a union and Wal-Mart quickly announced it was ending meat cutting at 180 of it's stores.

Wal-Mart employee's across the country continue to file lawsuits suing Wal-Mart for underpaying it's employees

In Maine, the Department of Labor found Wal-Mart guilty of 1,436 child labor law violations and forced them to pay the biggest fine in state history

In Central America, women who work in sweat shops to produce clothing sold in Wal-Mart stores are paid about 15 cents per pair of pants they make, which are then sold by Wal-Mart for $16.95. These women live in shacks with no water, plumbing or electricity. In China women working in factories generally live 9-12 per room in government provided dormitories.

[normajean777]

Originally Posted by Bryan

in a perfect world yes, but we live in reality. And the sad reality is if a family of 4 is struggling to put food on the table and they can go to Mom'n'Pop Country store and pay $150 a week for food or go to Walmart and pay $100 for the same food, they're going to shop at Walmart, even if they think it is a bad store. I can afford to get my groceries at places other than Walmart, so I do, but not everybody has that luxury.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be jthomas.

Dollars and cents wise, why does it make any sense to pay more for an identical product just to avoid a store? It doesn't seem rational to me in the least bit.

Also if Mom'n'Pop have been taking you to the cleaners, why is it bad that Walmart moves in and provides a little healthy competition?

[metropolis4]

Originally Posted by normajean777

Dollars and cents wise, why does it make any sense to pay more for an identical product just to avoid a store? It doesn't seem rational to me in the least bit.

Also if Mom'n'Pop have been taking you to the cleaners, why is it bad that Walmart moves in and provides a little healthy competition?

The question is why the prices are lower, and what practices they are implementing to achieve those low prices. When you only pay a worker 15 cents for a product you are selling for $16.95 its easy to make your prices low... Wal-Mart's philosophy seems to be to take unfair advantage of it's employee's and people in sweat shops in third world countries so that it can keep it's CEO salary high and undercut other stores. If that doesn't bother you, then go ahead

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by normajean777

Dollars and cents wise, why does it make any sense to pay more for an identical product just to avoid a store? It doesn't seem rational to me in the least bit.

Also if Mom'n'Pop have been taking you to the cleaners, why is it bad that Walmart moves in and provides a little healthy competition?

Dollars and cents wise, it probably doesn't make sense.

The thing to consider is that when Walmart charges a low price to you, they also pay less to the producer. In turn the producer cuts costs somewhere in the production aspect, theoretically lowering the quality of the product. A friend of mine saw this first hand in terms of the clothes at Wal-mart. He said that the companies that make t-shirts (he worked for a t-shirt designer that supplied designs to stores like JC Penney and Sears) would make one set of shirts for Penney, Sears, etc. and another, lower quality set, for Wal-mart.

Wal-mart isn't passing the savings onto the customer because they're feeling generous. They're doing it by telling manufacturers something akin to, "We can sell 1 million units of your product, but only if you let us buy it from you for cheaper than what you usually make it at."

[Ridley's Own]

Originally Posted by normajean777

Dollars and cents wise, why does it make any sense to pay more for an identical product just to avoid a store? It doesn't seem rational to me in the least bit.

Also if Mom'n'Pop have been taking you to the cleaners, why is it bad that Walmart moves in and provides a little healthy competition?

Which is the point of the video... The reason we choose Mom'n'Pop over WalMart is because our values place more importance on maintaining community and the stability of that community rather than simply getting something cheaper. That's how consumerism and liberal capitalism fundamentally begin to undermine our priorities as Christians.