The Nightmare of Christianity

**slap_j** · 09-19-2009, 10:23 AM

P.S. Oy. The smiley makes this look insincere. But I'm keeping it there, goshdarnit.

mYdEePeStDrEaM · 09-19-2009, 11:19 AM

That's sad. All I can say.

penguinofwar · 09-19-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mYdEePeStDrEaM

That's sad. All I can say.

I only read the quote that the kid said, buts all I really want to say, other than that I just hope that not that many non-christians will see this and make an attack on "Why not to be Christian" with it.

**DaGeek** · 09-19-2009, 01:24 PM

Real Christianity that ain't.

**slap_j** · 09-19-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguinofwar

I only read the quote that the kid said, buts all I really want to say, other than that I just hope that not that many non-christians will see this and make an attack on "Why not to be Christian" with it.

What I'm really concerned about is why any of those things his parents did seemed like a good idea to them. Were they just scared to death? Are "cultural" fundamentalists fear-mongers? I'm angry that I cannot see Christ in so much of popular Christian culture in our nation. And I don't say that lightly because I'm rarely angry.

OiBoyz · 09-19-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

What I'm really concerned about is why any of those things his parents did seemed like a good idea to them. Were they just scared to death? Are "cultural" fundamentalists fear-mongers? I'm angry that I cannot see Christ in so much of popular Christian culture in our nation. And I don't say that lightly because I'm rarely angry.

How do we know what they did or didn't do? The only testimony we have here is the dead nutjob who clearly had issues. Why at 24, after he'd seen the "truth" was he still living with his hated mother the [MOD EDIT --- Even though it was in the article, please do not circumvent the language filter]?

I'm not defending actions from the faith community that may have been wrong and/or hypocritical, but we're not being presented with both sides. If his mother was indeed taking stuff out of his room, perhaps it's because she could see the dude was unhinged.

And the bad guys at YWAM, - "The shocked staffers promptly warned Loretta Murray that her son "wasn't walking with the Lord and could be planning violence." Maybe they didn't discharge him for not talking enough, not being popular enough. Maybe it was because he clearly had some psychological issues, what with the talking to voices no one could hear.

Once again, blaming the victims instead of holding the guy with the gun responsible for his actions.

ICTHUS · 09-19-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slap_j

What I'm really concerned about is why any of those things his parents did seemed like a good idea to them. Were they just scared to death? Are "cultural" fundamentalists fear-mongers? I'm angry that I cannot see Christ in so much of popular Christian culture in our nation. And I don't say that lightly because I'm rarely angry.

I'm inclined to think that orthodox Christians should denounce these heretics when asked about them, rather than allowing their stain to poison the world's view of Christ's church.

The fact that people like this are recognized as members of the catholic church is a major stumbling block for me: I don't want to be part of a religion full of nutjobs like this. Jesus Camp made me extremely depressed for precisely this reason.

**slap_j** · 09-19-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

How do we know what they did or didn't do? The only testimony we have here is the dead nutjob who clearly had issues. Why at 24, after he'd seen the "truth" was he still living with his hated mother

You call him a "nutjob" and in the next breath you wonder why he couldn't manage to live on his own? I'm not quite sure what your point is unless it's not to trust anything in this article. If that's the case then on what grounds do you impugn the author's integrity?

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I'm not defending actions from the faith community that may have been wrong and/or hypocritical...

That's the part that struck me the most. Does it not strain credulity that a man is having a gay affair for three years and is somehow "completely heterosexual" in as many weeks? Ted Haggard is essentially given a free pass because of his prominence but Matthew Murray was, as Mr. Blumenthal puts it, "irrevocably rejected." That magnitude of hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

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And the bad guys at YWAM

I don't think they're bad guys. Just incompetent--chalking up what might have been a mental disorder to a spiritual problem. I have a family member who suffers from bipolar disorder and was told by a preacher that the problem was actually caused by demonic possession. A girl I went to highschool with had the same thing happen to her mother.

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Once again, blaming the victims instead of holding the guy with the gun responsible for his actions.

Exploring the roots of someone's violent behavior is not the same thing as absolving them of responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICTHUS

I'm inclined to think that orthodox Christians should denounce these heretics when asked about them, rather than allowing their stain to poison the world's view of Christ's church.

I'm not sure what the response ought to be. But it does make me loathe that oppressive, ignorance-embracing culture.

OiBoyz · 09-19-2009, 06:38 PM

Slap, you missed my point. I do have an issue with a story like this, that is slanted so heavily. Yet, the very apparent goal of the story is to blame everyone and anyone except the guy who pulled the trigger.

He obviously had issues. They may have been psychological. It's also possible that the YWAMers weren't wrong in pegging it as a Spiritual problem. Jesus didn't go around casting out demons just for the show. He did it because there were real demons present. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's certainly a possibility. The guy got involved in bestiality for crying out loud. I've worked with people with psychiatric issues for years. That's a new one. No one I've worked with has gone to the Satanic stuff and into the dark stuff this kid was getting into.

Of course the handling of the Haggard case was beyond wrong. But how does that make it ok for this kid to take up arms and start killing people? It made me furious at the time, and I'm sure you weren't doing handstands. But neither one of started shopping for AK47s.

This kid was in touch with lots of people who came out of religious abuse situations. As far as we know, they weren't planning on spilling blood.

I am not defending the wrong actions of the religious establishment. But I don't think this kid gets a free pass either. And I'm not convinced he didn't know right from wrong.

**slap_j** · 09-19-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OiBoyz

Yet, the very apparent goal of the story is to blame everyone and anyone except the guy who pulled the trigger.

I agree that he alone is guilty of the slayings. However that is not at all how I read the article. The focus seemed to be on the culture he was reacting against. Especially when you consider the context. My reason for posting this is not to discuss Matthew Murray per se, but to question that very culture.

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It's also possible that the YWAMers weren't wrong in pegging it as a Spiritual problem.

If they thought they had the expertise to diagnose something demonic then why not intervene? I doubt pretty much every story I hear about demons because I've seen it handled so clumsily so often. Imagine how much damage can be done if you don't know what you're talking about. Lives can be ruined.

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Of course the handling of the Haggard case was beyond wrong. But how does that make it ok for this kid to take up arms and start killing people?

"I want to know where was all the love, mercy and compassion for my supposed imperfections?"

No one is suggesting it somehow made his actions okay. But it was obviously damaging to him. I can easily forgive Ted Haggard for his affair. The "cheap grace" is what gets my goat.

OiBoyz · 09-19-2009, 09:51 PM

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No one is suggesting it somehow made his actions okay. But it was obviously damaging to him. I can easily forgive Ted Haggard for his affair.

I know you're not suggesting that. But that's exactly what I got from the article.

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The "cheap grace" is what gets my goat.

I agree 1000%.

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If they thought they had the expertise to diagnose something demonic then why not intervene? I doubt pretty much every story I hear about demons because I've seen it handled so clumsily so often. Imagine how much damage can be done if you don't know what you're talking about. Lives can be ruined.

Oh, I agree with you here, too. But just because they handled it wrong, doesn't mean he wasn't dealing with some big baddies. The vibe I get from reading this article is that he was. It's a shame that there weren't real, mature believers around him to help him deal with his problems.

My only point, was that Biblically, and according to our laws, you're supposed to be able to confront your accusers. His mother certainly wasn't afforded that chance. As far as I can tell, the author never even tried to contact her.

Bryan · 09-21-2009, 12:56 PM

I get nothing but a blank page.

**slap_j** · 09-21-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan

I get nothing but a blank page.

Try this one:

The Nightmare of Christianity: How Religious Indoctrination Led to Murder | | AlterNet

Bryan · 09-21-2009, 01:23 PM

damn, what a sad story.

**The wirerat** · 09-21-2009, 02:19 PM

Wow, that is some messed up parenting. Seriously. I mean, yes, Matthew is guilty of his crimes, but when the parents acted like the article says, that's at least one of the root causes of the issues. The other cause seems to be this Pentecostal spinoff cult thing his parents were involved in. It doesn't even sound like a church.
As far as being tied in with Gothard, I have been in Gothard's program, listened to his talks, attended the conferences, my mom even used some of his stuff in her homeschooling curriculum. But any of my friends will agree, that I don't even act like the "typical" homeschooler. I never once had my room raided, or was forced to choose between certain colleges, or even told I couldn't go certain places. I have been to bars, I've smoked, done things that would make a homeschooler go into hysterics. My point is, Gothard had nothing to do with it. As much as I dislike his program, because I feel its a little legalistic, it helped my parents get off their feet with homeschooling, and I didn't turn out so bad. I simply wanna point out, that Gothard's program, and its rules, can be twisted and used in so many different ways its not funny. Matthew's parents were twisted, sick, controlling people, and that did not help his childhood at all.
The YWAM people were right to remove Matthew from their school. I doubt they were licensed or even equipped to help someone that was having the problems he was. That being said...I think they maybe could have recommended that he go see a psychiatrist, or seek some sort of help.
Matthew's rage was that he was being rejected by people. He decided to take matters into his own hands, and acted violently. If he were in a court of law today, I would feel sorry for him, yet recommend the full measure of justice against him because he had a choice.