[Dr. Worm]

Originally Posted by Bryan

damn, what a sad story.

This was an incident that hit pretty close to home for me. I was living in Arvada at the time (where the YWAM base in question is located). I know a lot of people associated with the New Lifie church (of meth-fueled gay sex fame), both members and leaders in that church. I was involved with a different YWAM base, but still had connections to the organization that was obviously hit pretty hard by all this.

It is very very sad.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

I am just going to say, I have been there, in his shoes in a lot of ways. Grew up in the Bill Gothard Homeschooling program, heck, my mom was even a PT. In my experience, unlike the wirerat's I saw this brewing directly from the environment those sort of programs foster. When there is no moral difference between murder, talking to girls, and wacked out legalism, (murder gets put into the same category as DC Talk, so I mean seriously, the morals get thrown out of whack early) you really have to deprogram.

You have to rebel at the end of the day because you cannot survive without rebelling against all they take out of you. The important thing is rebelling with a cause. The problem is, very few find the cause and find the limits of rebellion that are appropriate. I know it took me years to figure that out. Years where I was pretty messed up inside.

I was at a training center at one point. I ran a clandestine bible study on Galatians in an attempt to show this was not the real deal... ...I really feel for the guy, because unfortunately, the story is way too close to my story. he needed the rare guys who made it out, and believe me, I have ran into several who were about half a step from gunfire because of the frustration, alienation, and depression. I don't think it is nearly as unusual as we would like to believe.

Its scary, but honestly, what is needed is Christians. Real Christians to grab theses guys from the brink.

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I am just going to say, I have been there, in his shoes in a lot of ways. Grew up in the Bill Gothard Homeschooling program, heck, my mom was even a PT. In my experience, unlike the wirerat's I saw this brewing directly from the environment those sort of programs foster. When there is no moral difference between murder, talking to girls, and wacked out legalism, (murder gets put into the same category as DC Talk, so I mean seriously, the morals get thrown out of whack early) you really have to deprogram.

You have to rebel at the end of the day because you cannot survive without rebelling against all they take out of you. The important thing is rebelling with a cause. The problem is, very few find the cause and find the limits of rebellion that are appropriate. I know it took me years to figure that out. Years where I was pretty messed up inside.

I was at a training center at one point. I ran a clandestine bible study on Galatians in an attempt to show this was not the real deal... ...I really feel for the guy, because unfortunately, the story is way too close to my story. he needed the rare guys who made it out, and believe me, I have ran into several who were about half a step from gunfire because of the frustration, alienation, and depression. I don't think it is nearly as unusual as we would like to believe.

Its scary, but honestly, what is needed is Christians. Real Christians to grab theses guys from the brink.

While my experience was different, I saw so many familys who were plastic....good looking on the outside, but on the inside full of in-fighting, hatred, rebellion, and at times even violence. I'm not saying the program is a good one, just putting in some defense for it. The program takes out of you what you let it take. You don't have to subscribe to all of its beliefs...maybe to work there, or to study there, but thats it.
That being said, Bill I definitely agree with you that real Christians need to pull these people out of these situations before it gets too late. And it isn't as unusual as we would like ourselves to believe. When you see a family that is seems too perfect to be true...you're probably right.
Now as far as how to help those kids...idk where to start, besides getting them out of that atmosphere so that they can breathe.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

While my experience was different, I saw so many familys who were plastic....good looking on the outside, but on the inside full of in-fighting, hatred, rebellion, and at times even violence. I'm not saying the program is a good one, just putting in some defense for it. The program takes out of you what you let it take. You don't have to subscribe to all of its beliefs...maybe to work there, or to study there, but thats it.

That was not my experience at all. I am thinking you ran into some extraordinarily loose members from what I saw, but I must say, we come from radically separate parts of the country, and well, I was forcibly was in a lot of their stuff. Where I have been from, its very, very strict, all or nothing and there are those who will attempt to enforce their will on your family. Truly scary stuff. That is at least, not unusual. It is part of the mindset.

That being said, Bill I definitely agree with you that real Christians need to pull these people out of these situations before it gets too late. And it isn't as unusual as we would like ourselves to believe. When you see a family that is seems too perfect to be true...you're probably right.
Now as far as how to help those kids...idk where to start, besides getting them out of that atmosphere so that they can breathe.

Where to start... ...ethics, simple ethics, first showing them half the stuff they thought was sin is not. Then I would go to where to rebel. Because not rebelling is not an option, but why you rebel and where are very specific matters that need to be addressed.

[Pauler]

i think you are right bspe. i went through something similar, though not nearly as extreme. i keep in touch w/ some that went to the same church as i did, and it seems that the majority of those i talk to all rebelled in one form or another.

i went through it, and you are right, it takes a long while to find equilibrium.

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

That was not my experience at all. I am thinking you ran into some extraordinarily loose members from what I saw, but I must say, we come from radically separate parts of the country, and well, I was forcibly was in a lot of their stuff. Where I have been from, its very, very strict, all or nothing and there are those who will attempt to enforce their will on your family. Truly scary stuff. That is at least, not unusual. It is part of the mindset.

Would you agree with me that the more strict sects of people could be be more of a cult that twisted Gothard's teachings to fit their view of how life should be? I hope I'm not sounding naive, because I know such people are out there, and probably more of them than I think, but I view those sort of people as cultish. I do agree with you that the morals in the program are seriously messed up from the beginning, and the analogy you made was right on. I believe that the people who subscribe to that (i.e. your background and Pauler's) are cultish in nature.

Where to start... ...ethics, simple ethics, first showing them half the stuff they thought was sin is not. Then I would go to where to rebel. Because not rebelling is not an option, but why you rebel and where are very specific matters that need to be addressed.

This is true. The Revolution we had in the 1700's is a perfect example, I believe of rebelling with a cause, and for a good reason. If anyone feels the need to debate me on the whole revolutionary war issue, pm me, don't sidetrack the thread, thanks.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

Would you agree with me that the more strict sects of people could be be more of a cult that twisted Gothard's teachings to fit their view of how life should be? I hope I'm not sounding naive, because I know such people are out there, and probably more of them than I think, but I view those sort of people as cultish. I do agree with you that the morals in the program are seriously messed up from the beginning, and the analogy you made was right on. I believe that the people who subscribe to that (i.e. your background and Pauler's) are cultish in nature.

Cult, yes. However, I don't think they twisted Gothard at all. I think they pretty much did his bidding, and took things to the logical conclusion of where those rabbit holes go. I think that is exactly where the Gothard material goes. I used to refer to it as the cult of Gothard. But there are layers. If it was not in line with his actual teaching, then what I saw would not have been officially mandated. I wish it was a lunatic fringe, but I went to ATIA conferences, etc.

This is true. The Revolution we had in the 1700's is a perfect example, I believe of rebelling with a cause, and for a good reason. If anyone feels the need to debate me on the whole revolutionary war issue, pm me, don't sidetrack the thread, thanks.

I won't go into the rev war thing. I disagree on whether it was needed or was just, but that's neither here nor there. At some point you do end up in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. You end up where the ideal leads to a dead end life, and all around you are a series of options, none of which are livable. Its like the Mosaic law in a very real sense. You end up unable to fulfill the commands. Unfortunately, you violate your conscience to do it, and unfortunately that leads to getting used to violating your conscience, which leads to no conscience at all, which is truly terrifying, thus the key thing is reworking the conscience first before you try to rebel.

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Cult, yes. However, I don't think they twisted Gothard at all. I think they pretty much did his bidding, and took things to the logical conclusion of where those rabbit holes go. I think that is exactly where the Gothard material goes. I used to refer to it as the cult of Gothard. But there are layers. If it was not in line with his actual teaching, then what I saw would not have been officially mandated. I wish it was a lunatic fringe, but I went to ATIA conferences, etc.

Looking back at what I said earlier, I think I'm more inclined to agree with you. There were actually a group of people at one point in time (possibly still are) who called themselves "Gothardites." You've probably heard the term. From what I heard (and this is stuff I heard from the former personal assistant to Gothard), Gothard did not like the term, because he felt he shouldn't be viewed that way...that he was simply trying to teach people how to live a Godly lifestyle, albeit an extremely conservative and narrow-minded way of living. I also attended the conferences when I was younger and my family still participated in the program.
I later attended a school called ALERT, which was a program done by ATI, as its now called, but ALERT has since separated itself immensely from ATI. Their only ties to ATI now, are participation in the young boys program at the conferences, and the same board of directors, and president (Gothard). ALERT shared some of the same views with ATI, but with vastly different results. The caliber of men I saw leave that place was amazing. Kids would come in as narrow-minded ATI students, and leave as confident, Christian men with their life well on track. Maybe in the training, with the practical applications of basic Christian principles, straight from the Bible, we could take these kids, and give them a life that is on track with God, yet without the emotionally damaging life.
That being said...ATI is widely viewed as a cult, and those who hold only to Gothard's teaching should be viewed as members of a cult.

I won't go into the rev war thing. I disagree on whether it was needed or was just, but that's neither here nor there. At some point you do end up in a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. You end up where the ideal leads to a dead end life, and all around you are a series of options, none of which are livable. Its like the Mosaic law in a very real sense. You end up unable to fulfill the commands. Unfortunately, you violate your conscience to do it, and unfortunately that leads to getting used to violating your conscience, which leads to no conscience at all, which is truly terrifying, thus the key thing is reworking the conscience first before you try to rebel.

It becomes more of living that way because someone said to, without the heart change and mind change to go with it. I agree with you, and I believe I said this before, that you need to give them a valid reason to rebel against their upbringing. Additionally, as you said, re-working the conscience is needed in order to be effective in the "de-programming" of these people.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by The wirerat

Looking back at what I said earlier, I think I'm more inclined to agree with you. There were actually a group of people at one point in time (possibly still are) who called themselves "Gothardites." You've probably heard the term. From what I heard (and this is stuff I heard from the former personal assistant to Gothard), Gothard did not like the term, because he felt he shouldn't be viewed that way...that he was simply trying to teach people how to live a Godly lifestyle, albeit an extremely conservative and narrow-minded way of living. I also attended the conferences when I was younger and my family still participated in the program.
I later attended a school called ALERT, which was a program done by ATI, as its now called, but ALERT has since separated itself immensely from ATI. Their only ties to ATI now, are participation in the young boys program at the conferences, and the same board of directors, and president (Gothard). ALERT shared some of the same views with ATI, but with vastly different results. The caliber of men I saw leave that place was amazing. Kids would come in as narrow-minded ATI students, and leave as confident, Christian men with their life well on track. Maybe in the training, with the practical applications of basic Christian principles, straight from the Bible, we could take these kids, and give them a life that is on track with God, yet without the emotionally damaging life.
That being said...ATI is widely viewed as a cult, and those who hold only to Gothard's teaching should be viewed as members of a cult.

I am familiar with the early days of ALERT. Scared the crap outa me. To be honest, my last experience with them was in OKC in 2001. I have never had anything more to do with ATI since then other than trying to catch the ATI kids at Moody and try to welcome them to the world and try to help them acclimate to the world outside of home.

Yes, I encountered Gothardites, and even more conservative sects. But unfortunately, where I came from and my background led me to a lot of the same places as the kid in the article. It honestly worried me.

It becomes more of living that way because someone said to, without the heart change and mind change to go with it. I agree with you, and I believe I said this before, that you need to give them a valid reason to rebel against their upbringing. Additionally, as you said, re-working the conscience is needed in order to be effective in the "de-programming" of these people.

In my case, and in a lot of cases I have seen since, the noose tightens so tight, that you can't help but rebel. Unfortunately, that conditions you to rebel. That is where the conscience gets dangerous. You do get so accustomed to it, who you are rebelling against becomes irrelevant. That scares me because I have lived as law to myself.

[The wirerat]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I am familiar with the early days of ALERT. Scared the crap outa me. To be honest, my last experience with them was in OKC in 2001. I have never had anything more to do with ATI since then other than trying to catch the ATI kids at Moody and try to welcome them to the world and try to help them acclimate to the world outside of home.

ALERT has changed a lot since the early days. I have friends of mine who have worked with the program since Unit 1, they are now on Unit 45 and going strong. There have been a ton of positive changes in the program itself, and the programs it administers as well. From what I hear, ALERT is a glowing example of positive Christian growth and character building, with ATI an almost opposite of the program. There are many of us at ALERT who didn't even have ATI, or even homeschooling backgrounds who look down on those coming in from ATI exactly for what you and I have been discussing here. I, even as a former "ATIer" myself, look down on many of the kids who come from ATI backgrounds for not only the way they look at us, but also they way they view themselves in reference to the rest of the world.

Yes, I encountered Gothardites, and even more conservative sects. But unfortunately, where I came from and my background led me to a lot of the same places as the kid in the article. It honestly worried me.

I'm assuming you share a lot of similarities to Matthew's background...I don't know your whole story, but that seems where you are coming from, and I can honestly say, those people scare me more than almost anyone else.

n my case, and in a lot of cases I have seen since, the noose tightens so tight, that you can't help but rebel. Unfortunately, that conditions you to rebel. That is where the conscience gets dangerous. You do get so accustomed to it, who you are rebelling against becomes irrelevant. That scares me because I have lived as law to myself.

Quite true. Where I guess we need to come in, is the direction for that rebellion, and providing the mindset and conscience, as you pointed out. Basically setting new parameters for them.