[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by thesteve

No, he did have to go and relearn how to play slower and approach songs differently. If was difficult for awhile to integrate into the worship team because it was a playing style that had become completely foreign to him.

I've known quite a few players who can shred (some good, some bad) and yet can't tackle a simple melody or don't know how to take a musical breath during a phrase. It's just not something that they've spent any quality time on for whatever reason. And yet, to me, the mark of a true virtuoso is someone who has mastered their instrument across a full spectrum of abilities and difficulties.
Knowing what to play in the context of any given song is great ability all on it's own.
Let me also say that I do not equate speed to technical ability nor slow to feeling or expression. Doing so is to be very narrow-minded and to miss the technical ability in the slow and the feeling and expression in the fast.
Paganini revealed this in both the 24 Caprices and in Concerto #2 for violin. A virtuoso needs to be able to execute the fast phrases and the slow phrases with equal ability and feeling.

[gregrjones]

Originally Posted by Joe F

Since for me, the purpose of music in a Sunday morning service is to exalt Christ and bring the people deeper into a state of worship through singing His praise, does anyone have any video clips of an example of where an extended electric guitar shred accomplished this, or at least is a part of that process?

Now that I've seen what was meant by the Paul Baloche comment, I would have to say that I agree with Baloche. For me shredding is fine in performances, and even in some youth oriented gatherings, however in every example I've ever seen of extended shredding in a Sunday morning church service, it has always screamed out "Look at me. Looky what I can do." I like a little instrumental breakout/turnaround/intro/outro, but I have seen it get downright obnoxious as I mentioned earlier with the electric guitarist down on his knees front and center with a spotlight on him.
.

We're not talking about EXTENDED shredding. We're talking about displays of virtuosity. I am objecting to shunning such displays because it could be misinterpreted as "showing off" (as long as the musician doesn't have that intent).

With that said, Lincoln Brewster's instrumental of "Here I Am To Worship" is certainly an extended solo since it is instrumental, but also very worshipful. Anything off of Keaggy's "Beyond Nature" would qualify as worshipful as well.

I'm objecting to Baloche's banning of 16th notes and beyond in guitar solos....

Originally Posted by thesteve

No, he did have to go and relearn how to play slower and approach songs differently. If was difficult for awhile to integrate into the worship team because it was a playing style that had become completely foreign to him

Ok. I've been thinking about this more and I think we can come to an agreement.

What I've been pointing out is that it is most difficult for a player to LEARN fast passages.

I think you've been saying that it's more difficult for a player to PLAY the slow melodic passages.

There may be truth in both.

My cites of evidence that Youtube instructionals on lead guitar, magazine instruction, and my personal experience as a guitar instructor, point to the obvious fact that players are trying to learn to play fast because that's more difficult to do.

But once they learn this, YES they can mindlessly noodle scales, intervals and arpeggios. Would I be safe to say that THIS was what you are saying? If so, I can agree with that.

For me, it is still easier to play melodically than to shred because I play by ear so if I can hear the melody, I can play it. But I don't naturally hear shred lines, especially as well phrased as say Vito Bratta of White Lion. Check out his lead playing to hear what I mean.

[Joe F]

Then there's the "anti-solo"....

The Anti-Solo Guitar for Worship

[jeepnstein]

I'm going to a worship service this weekend that some of my friends do at a denominational church up the road from me. It is very youth-oriented. It's a great time and really allows the church to do some outreach.

The praise band is pretty solid and does a variety of styles of modern music. Their lead player is a prototypical shredder. I mean that's all he does. It may very well be all he can do. He never goes in your face with it and keeps his playing within the context of the music.

Now that is no different than my playing, which tends to make everything sound like both kinds of music, County and Western.

At some point in your playing your personal styles and tastes will come out. We don't expect preachers to bend their style to mimic this or that famous one on TV, why should we expect our musicians to be less than honest about who they are? As long as the music isn't a stumbling block for the congregation. As long as the music gives all the glory and honor to God. As long as the musician is engaging in heartfelt praise. The rest of it doesn't matter a bit.

To me it's all about playing your music in a setting that is appropriate. Musicians need to be sensitive to the needs of their audience to a point. A appropriate sermon given at a prison service might be very different from one given at a retirement home. Our musical choices also need to be appropriate.

Context is important in Bible study. It's just as important in our worship.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by gregrjones

Ok. I've been thinking about this more and I think we can come to an agreement.

What I've been pointing out is that it is most difficult for a player to LEARN fast passages.

I think you've been saying that it's more difficult for a player to PLAY the slow melodic passages.

There may be truth in both.

My cites of evidence that Youtube instructionals on lead guitar, magazine instruction, and my personal experience as a guitar instructor, point to the obvious fact that players are trying to learn to play fast because that's more difficult to do.

But once they learn this, YES they can mindlessly noodle scales, intervals and arpeggios. Would I be safe to say that THIS was what you are saying? If so, I can agree with that.

For me, it is still easier to play melodically than to shred because I play by ear so if I can hear the melody, I can play it. But I don't naturally hear shred lines, especially as well phrased as say Vito Bratta of White Lion. Check out his lead playing to hear what I mean.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about the investment of time learning a skill. I'm talking about the ease a application of skills. A lot of guys get into the fundamentals shred (arpeggios, legato, high speed pentatonics and box patterns) and try to apply it to the point that it becomes their modus operandi. For these players, playing melodically becomes a lost art.

Originally Posted by gregrjones

I'm objecting to Baloche's banning of 16th notes and beyond in guitar solos....

Does he actually ever say this? It seems like a very ignorant position to take.

[gregrjones]

Originally Posted by thesteve

Does he actually ever say this? It seems like a very ignorant position to take.

Do I have to provide an exact quote for you to believe this? Isn't the absence of such leads in any of his music sufficient to see that he believes this?

No, I'm not quoting him but in his instructional video on guitar, he basically says that he thinks it's better for the lead player to keep it simple. That is born out in his music. I'm just saying that a Brewster approach sounds great as well to my ears and on this point I disagree.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by gregrjones

Do I have to provide an exact quote for you to believe this? Isn't the absence of such leads in any of his music sufficient to see that he believes this?

No, I'm not quoting him but in his instructional video on guitar, he basically says that he thinks it's better for the lead player to keep it simple. That is born out in his music. I'm just saying that a Brewster approach sounds great as well to my ears and on this point I disagree.

I just think there's a huge difference between saying, "Paul Baloche says he prefers a simple approach to lead guitar parts" and "Paul Baloche has banned the playing the 16th notes and beyond in guitar solos". To me, the latter paints a picture of a man who has set up a list of musical rules and regulations that his band has to follow, while the former just has a method that he feels fits the overall vibe of the music he plays.

I guess I just have my doubts that every single Paul Baloche song is lacking in the "guitar solo with a 16th note run" department. I would honestly be very surprised if there were not at least one recording of his where the lead guitar part contains a 16th note run.

[gregrjones]

Originally Posted by thesteve

Does he actually ever say this? It seems like a very ignorant position to take.

I thought I had already answered this. He doesn't literally say, "I ban all 16th notes and beyond in solos). But he does say on the instructional video that he prefers solos that aren't flashy.

Listening to his catalog gives the best understanding. You'll never hear any displays of virtuosity in them like you might hear say in Brewster's "Salvation Is Here"

[Skifree0813]

Originally Posted by gregrjones

I thought I had already answered this. He doesn't literally say, "I ban all 16th notes and beyond in solos). But he does say on the instructional video that he prefers solos that aren't flashy.

There ya go. Sure, a lot of the time those two go together, but I think it needs to be case by case most of the time. I'm letting myself fall in the middle, although I think for the majority of worship music, something on the more subtle side is generally more appropriate.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by gregrjones

I thought I had already answered this.

You answered that on December 12th as follows

Do I have to provide an exact quote for you to believe this? Isn't the absence of such leads in any of his music sufficient to see that he believes this?

No, I'm not quoting him but in his instructional video on guitar, he basically says that he thinks it's better for the lead player to keep it simple. That is born out in his music. I'm just saying that a Brewster approach sounds great as well to my ears and on this point I disagree.

[NoMoreSilence]

Guitar solos in church.. ahh there's a controversial issue within itself.

Some see it as the guitarist being prideful and bragging up their talent, whereas others such as myself love it and think it really deepens the worship if it's a fast song. My church's lead guitarist, Greg Farley, is absolutely amazing, and rips out incredible solos all the time.
I base my word in this on where it says in Psalms to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord." and where it says that there is great rejoicing in heaven. Therefore, I believe God loves it! The bible says to serve the Lord with your BEST. Sometimes, playing an awesome guitar solo means giving it your best.
So often worship teams just play slow songs that the instrumentalists get bored of playing after a while.
But what I have noticed from experience is, when you throw a guitar solo in a song where it flows leading up to it and leading out of it, people like it.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by 6strings21frets

At my current church, we don't really do instrumentals so we don't really get to do solos, but we have a game where you have to try and get a riff from a well-known song (e.g. I play the chorus riff of Welcome Home (Sanitarium) when we play How Great is our God).

Six Strings, stop and think about what you've said here:

a) Your worship team has "a game" involved in planning worship music

b) You play a riff by Metallica from a song about assured insanity in a worship song about the greatness of God


I find this greatly distressing, man. What if a non-Christian walked in and heard this? Would they really think "Oh! Wow! Christianity is so non-judgmental and rocking!" or would they think "This worship band really wants to show off" or "This worship band doesn't take things seriously" or "Hmm. The image of Metallica doesn't really jive with Christianity."

When some of my non-Christian friends have heard non-Christian songs blended into worship when they've visited churches with me, those negative sentiments have been more along the lines of their response.



Frankly, I'm finding myself turning against instruments in worship, at least where our culture's going. I think evangelicals need a break from all of the hip-styled twenty-somethings who have been handed the major role of leading worship.

ESPECIALLY youth group worship. Kids ripping soloes and programming beats - from experience and observation, it seems to be done less out of devotion and more out of novelty or a desire to look cool.

Music is a powerful, wonderful tool. But if it engages us solely because of proficiency or familiarity of the music, I think we've strayed far from the path.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by NoMoreSilence

I base my word in this on where it says in Psalms to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord." and where it says that there is great rejoicing in heaven. Therefore, I believe God loves it!

I think a synapse just blew in my mind.

Premises: "The Bible encourages us to make a joyful noise; "In Heaven, there is great rejoicing."
Conclusion: "God loves guitar soloes."

NoMoreSilence, that is simply terrible Scriptural deduction.

he bible says to serve the Lord with your BEST. Sometimes, playing an awesome guitar solo means giving it your best.

Awesome! It's great that you go to a church that has drum soloes, bass soloes, and vocal soloes as well as guitar soloes. And if your church has brass players, you'd be okay with them joining the worship band and ripping trumpet soloes and trombone soloes, right? We wouldn't want to limit things to just guitar. Everyone should get the chance to play their best!

But what I have noticed from experience is, when you throw a guitar solo in a song where it flows leading up to it and leading out of it, people like it.

I've also noticed that when church services cut back on Scripture and pile on feel-good sentiments, people like it.

So, it's settled: more guitar soloes and less Scripture because our standard is how people feel.

[pooleman0]

I have been leading worship at my church for 4 years now. Our congregation has grown to the point where we needed to expand to two services, and for this I give God all the praise and credit. So we now have two worship teams, one for each service. I used to lead with the acoustic but now we have a proficient rhythm guitarist so I have started playing my Strat and throwing in a simple lead here and there. During our normal worship the leads riffs are never more than a measure or two. One some of the fast songs these "solos" have been in the 16th note area but on the short side, I'll squeeze them in between the verse and the chorus, and on the slower intimate songs I will do a little melody riff or a simple arpeggio. We have done some "special music" pieces where a longer solo was played was played, but these were separate performances, not the normal worship.

The point is to bring glory to God. I think a simple solo is great, and I equate it to the beauty of a vocal harmony. I can add to the worship. But it has been my experience that "face melting" guitar solos and "gut busting" loud and heavy distortion is a distraction, and can rob God of his glory. And it may not rob YOU of your worship but it is probably distracting some of your congregation, and drawing THEIR focus away from God and to you. And that is wrong. Your job as a worship leader, (and make no mistake about it, everyone performing on stage is a worship leader) is to lead OTHERS into worship, and into His presence.

[gtrdave]

Originally Posted by pooleman0

Your job as a worship leader, (and make no mistake about it, everyone performing on stage is a worship leader) is to lead OTHERS into worship, and into His presence.

I've heard this opinion quite a lot over the years and probably even said it myself some time ago.
While I would agree that leading others into worship and into His presence is "a" job of ours, it's certainly not "the" job of ours.
Our job, actually our first duty and command, is to worship God.
Regardless if it's manifested through the playing of a guitar solo or through serving our neighbor or through the offering of our tithe or by praying for the sick, our "job" is to worship God.
This is why Matt Redman (and probably others) coined the term "lead worshiper" (as opposed to worship leader) a long time ago.
It might seem like semantics to some, but a simple rearrangement of the words can give clarity to the definition as to what we're specifically called to do.

Yes, we also have a duty to operate within the expected boundaries of "orderly worship" for our given culture and, so, if extended guitar solos are outside the boundaries for the environment in which we serve, we should limit them or eliminate them.
No two Christian churches in the same community need to function similarly save for the preaching of Christ and Him crucified.
That said, if the church culture that you're in is one that supports music that regularly features guitar solos or flute solos or kazoo solos or beating-on-a-cardboard-box-with-a-stick solos and they're done to the glory of God, you should go right ahead and do them.

Re: drawing someone's attention away from worshiping God.
I'm the kind of person who can be drawn away from worship by the lighting, by the video, by out-of-tune singing, by a mispronunciation of a word by the speaker/pastor, etc...so I do understand very well the desire to not add anything that could be perceived as a distraction during the course of a church service.
That said, we have to be careful to not operate from a position of fear of offending anyone, so much so that we place more limitations on "worship" than are necessary.
I could very well play a guitar solo as an act of worship that might bless 10 or 100 or more people and bless God, but may also offend someone who is ignorant to a more contemporary style of music.
What do we do in that case, take a congregational survey? Hinder the ability of ourselves and others to worship? Function under a "better safe than sorry" policy?
Again, we're called to worship, first, not cater to, pander or facilitate a non-offensive environment.
If the wide spectrum of our genuine worship of God involves playing guitar solos, we should do it. If not, don't. The Holy Spirit should be the only One we're ever concerned with offending, imho.