[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well I am sure there are some on the right that want real anarchy so I cant agree there-- but yeah go research the cgr archives and show me a qoute that says I do not believe in any govt. regulation--wear good shoes for your foot work.

So you'll abandon the faith if I can show you saying that government intervention in business is socialism?!?

[nolidad]

Capitalism does not preclude the govt from working WITH private industry to coordinate things.
But you know that already.

You, and the right, have repeatedly called that socialism.

Of course you did, and if you'll bet your religion I'll do your foot work and go look it up for you.

Well I am sure there are some on the right that want real anarchy so I cant agree there-- but yeah go research the cgr archives and show me a qoute that says I do not believe in any govt. regulation--wear good shoes for your foot work.

So you'll abandon the faith if I can show you saying that government intervention in business is socialism?!?

I have walked down this road with you many times before. I make a statement on a specific issue and you seek to expand it to make it an all encompassing rule in every other connected area and then attack me for your man made charge.

I stand by my first statement in this progression--IN THE COTEXT IT WAS WRITTEN IN. so go find that comment.

Reject Christ? There is nothing in the universe including you taking a qoute of mine oput of its context that would want me to deny the One I love the most. Would you settle for a big Mac???

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

I have walked down this road with you many times before. I make a statement on a specific issue and you seek to expand it to make it an all encompassing rule in every other connected area and then attack me for your man made charge.

I stand by my first statement in this progression--IN THE COTEXT IT WAS WRITTEN IN. so go find that comment.

Reject Christ? There is nothing in the universe including you taking a qoute of mine oput of its context that would want me to deny the One I love the most. Would you settle for a big Mac???

So then we know how much you stand behind your own claims. You assert them as absolutes, but then run away from defending them.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

So then we know how much you stand behind your own claims. You assert them as absolutes, but then run away from defending them.

Ho-Hum- you knew that I would ot put up my faith in HIm even though I am right so that was just a false starter.

It is good to see that because you hold the govt has all the rights here- you have no problem with the govt. creating a 40% unemployment rate among hard working farmers.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

It is good to see that because you hold the govt has all the rights here- you have no problem with the govt. creating a 40% unemployment rate among hard working farmers.

I'm not aware that there is a 40% unemployment rate: but my point has been all along that the government didn't create it.

If there are farmers with a market for their goods, I'm confident that, through perseverance, they can find somewhere in the world with water. There are some empty lots not too far from me.

If there is no market for their goods, then there's no reason to make them.

Or they could stand around where there's no resources and whine for the government to help them. That's what you are advocating.

[nolidad]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

I'm not aware that there is a 40% unemployment rate: but my point has been all along that the government didn't create it.

If there are farmers with a market for their goods, I'm confident that, through perseverance, they can find somewhere in the world with water. There are some empty lots not too far from me.

If there is no market for their goods, then there's no reason to make them.

Or they could stand around where there's no resources and whine for the government to help them. That's what you are advocating.

Well your point or not--govt. is the cause of the 40 % unemployment rate in the sanjoaquin valley- by choosing a fish over people.

Well seeing how we are losing 90% of Americas supply of almonds, 40% of america supply of institutional tomatoes (for things like catsup, sauce , paste, pizza sauce and spagetti sauce), 75% of the nations source of canteloupe, winter iceberg lettuce etc. etc. etc..

Well gee Jerry maybe you can just up and leave and have enough money to plunk down onnew property but most Americans are not privileged like you- we have our lives sunk into property and don't have th emoney to just up and leave.

Or the govt. could reopen the pumps and instead of letting millions of gallons of water daily flowe to the ocean- it can go back to where it was going for decades- to the farmers, but you can't see that

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well gee Jerry maybe you can just up and leave and have enough money to plunk down onnew property but most Americans are not privileged like you- we have our lives sunk into property and don't have th emoney to just up and leave.

Or the govt. could reopen the pumps and instead of letting millions of gallons of water daily flowe to the ocean- it can go back to where it was going for decades- to the farmers, but you can't see that

So if only the government will act to ensure your income, and protect your livelyhood.

Why stop with changes in water availability. If K-Mart closes down, shouldn't the government start buying K-Mart's stuff. Not all K-Mart employees can afford to just up and leave.

But I was curious:

Originally Posted by Nolidad

Most of them are migrant workers in this section so one can't be sure.

Originally Posted by Nolidad

we have our lives sunk into property

Which is it. Migrants or land-owning farmers? Is it just which ever is more convenient for your argument?

BTW. I bothered to go look up your original complaint, and it's simply a lie.

There is a single region in CA where water-withdrawl has been limited to protect several species of fish... including Salmon (which, it may surprise you, many Californians make a living off of. I'm sure you'd be crying the same tune with a different protagonist if they had not); but the real issue is general water restrictions caused by a third year of drought.

I know this will surprise you: but farming a desert isn't always the most assured of tasks.

An estimated 80,000 jobs are missing this year *in all of California* and *as the result of drought*.

But don't let the facts stop you from blaming the government... which was under Bush at the time.

[nolidad]

So if only the government will act to ensure your income, and protect your livelyhood.

Why stop with changes in water availability. If K-Mart closes down, shouldn't the government start buying K-Mart's stuff. Not all K-Mart employees can afford to just up and leave.

But I was curious:

seeing how you probably already know this stuff it may be repititious but worth repeating.

This man made river- was designed as a joint project between the govt. and farmersand the towns The farmers pay for water use which covers the cost of construction and maintnenace. It was agreed by govt. and farmers for them to use. The govt. has gone back on their joint agreement. As an interseting side note, Hannity had a special on the area and a former democratic mayor recounted how shortly after 9/11 Homeland security gave plans for the mayors to insure th eprotection of the waterwasy to insure the FARMERS got their needed water. This water was designed to go to the farmers, PERIOD. It doesn't feed towns - the water is just now simply flowing onto the ocean while billions in crops are destroyed.

Well if Kmart was a joint public /private venture yes but it isn't so, no!

After all wer now have Govt ins. (AIG) Govt. Motors (GM and chrylser to a lesser extent)
And Bank of AMerica (besieds th eoriginal one with that name) maybe we should just stop playing and go whole hog and let the govt. take it all!

There is a single region in CA where water-withdrawl has been limited to protect several species of fish... including Salmon (which, it may surprise you, many Californians make a living off of. I'm sure you'd be crying the same tune with a different protagonist if they had not); but the real issue is general water restrictions caused by a third year of drought.

BTW. I bothered to go look up your original complaint, and it's simply a lie.

No Jerry-- you do!

FNC: Drought-Stricken Farmers Lose Fight for Water to Endangered Fish | NewsBusters.org

Truckers to Help California Farmers Faced with Water Crisis | AskTheTrucker

Farmers vs. Fish Amid the California Drought - TIME

Republicans Call for Action to Address Man-Made Drought (California farmers lose fight to fishes)

Also it may be interesting to know this is not a native fish to America- it was introduced to our waters from Asia.

As for the Salmon- there are many other fish species they can dine on- I wonder what they ate before this man made river went into ops in 1968?? And when there were no delta smelt. it seems the salmon didn't suffer so much. If it is such an endangered species why ar etrhey still pumping from othr locations in the delta for water to drink?

[JerryLove]

As an interseting side note, Hannity had a special on the area and a former democratic mayor recounted how shortly after 9/11 Homeland security gave plans for the mayors to insure th eprotection of the waterwasy to insure the FARMERS got their needed water.

All but one of your sources reference hannity BTW.

No Jerry-- you do!

80,000 farm workers and rising have lost their livelihood and dozens of farms have gone belly up in California. Is it because of the drought?

NO! It is because of a tiney littel minnow sometimes getting mushed up in the powerful pumps that push water to the farmers.

First, let's check your numbers. For fairness, I'll use your own reference:

The man-made actions have been devastating to California's San Joaquin Valley where it is estimated that this year alone up to 35,000 jobs will be lost

So you said 80k and counting. Your cite says 35k will. That makes your claim a lie.

There is a drought BTW: Current Conditions

Also it may be interesting to know this is not a native fish to America- it was introduced to our waters from Asia.

So let's see if it's true that the fish lives in Asia.

"Delta smelt are found only in the Sacramento-San Joaquin Estuary"-http://www.delta.dfg.ca.gov/gallery/dsmelt.asp

This from a tremendously anti-Obama site (The California Water v. Delta Smelt War (Updated) RBO)

"could potentially hike water rates for consumers and hurt farmers already smarting from a drought."

Not "no water" but "more expensive water" and to farmers "already smarting". Hrm. Sounds like "this alone caused all these losses and there's no other solution than to reopen the pumps" wasn't entirely honest an inference.

Finally (and remember this problem has been since 2007), I went to my grocery store and found that there was not an unmet demand for food.

[nolidad]

The man-made actions have been devastating to California's San Joaquin Valley where it is estimated that this year alone up to 35,000 jobs will be lost

So you said 80k and counting. Your cite says 35k will. That makes your claim a lie.

Well that was a may 9 report- as of last week it is now 80,000 as my reference said ir would climb to

There is a drought BTW: Current Conditions

No one said there wasn't But 80,000,000,000 a month are shut off from human use and flow direct to teh ocean.

Delta smelt are found only in the Sacramento-San Joaquin Estuary"-http://www.delta.dfg.ca.gov/gallery/dsmelt.asp

Water restrictions that were imposed by our Federal Government in order to protect a little fish called the Delta Smelt, is putting California farmers out of business. You’ve heard about this, right? The Delta Smelt is a little fish that lives abundantly in Asia. The tiny creature found its way over to America and landed in Southern California. The smelt’s habitat is the source of water pumped to 25 million people in Southern California and the Bay Area. The Department of Water Services has shut down pumping from the delta during the smelt’s most vulnerable times. This in turn, has left the farmers with no water to irrigate their fields, thus causing our American Farmers to lose their crops and to help raise the unemployment rate in the area to a whopping forty percent!

Maybe in America it is found here- but it came from Asia.

So you said 80k and counting. Your cite says 35k will. That makes your claim a lie.

May 9th report- if you wnt I will also get a sept update --sorry I know you love using the word lie- but this time its you not me.


The FNC correspondent soon relayed Republican Congressman Devin Nunes’ complaint that thousands of jobs have been threatened by the ruling: "Representative Nunes estimates that 37,000 jobs have been lost due to the smelt issue, and that number is rising higher by the day. And in one town in California, unemployment is up to an astonishing 40 percent."

After the report concluded with Earhardt visiting unemployed farmers at a food bank, the FNC correspondent appeared live in studio with Hannity as the two summed up the situation:

AINSLEY EARHARDT: They're all losing their jobs. We're talking about, Representative Nunes says up to 80,000 jobs could be lost. So we're talking about lots of jobs. We went to the food bank. The line was wrapped around the block because people don't have food.

[nolidad]

Which is it. Migrants or land-owning farmers? Is it just which ever is more convenient for your argument?

It is both- but you knew that already- you just love your contentiousness.

So let's see if it's true that the fish lives in Asia.

"Delta smelt are found only in the Sacramento-San Joaquin Estuary"-http://www.delta.dfg.ca.gov/gallery/dsmelt.asp

Well lets see if you are truth telling or lying!

The article you list gives its scientific name: Hypomesus transpacificus)

and the article says that in AMERICA it is onlt found in California and the delta in question.

And lo and behold when I go to a Californai academy of science ichthyology web site I found:

CAS - Catalog of Fishes

They are found in Asia after all. I apologize for telling the truth

This from a tremendously anti-Obama site (The California Water v. Delta Smelt War (Updated) RBO)

"

could potentially hike water rates for consumers and hurt farmers already smarting from a drought."
Not "no water" but "more expensive water" and to farmers "already smarting". Hrm. Sounds like "this alone caused all these losses and there's no other solution than to reopen the pumps" wasn't entirely honest an inference.

Well seeing this was feb. 2009 reporting- the times and consequences changed as well.

Finally (and remember this problem has been since 2007), I went to my grocery store and found that there was not an unmet demand for food.

Well lets extend your compassion a little further.

Plenty of cars around. Take the money back from GM and Chrysler. If they can't make it too bad for them.

Lotsa of banks around. Get the money back from Citi and all the other banks- Govt. has no business there either.

Insurance companies- plenty around get rid of AIG.

Freddie Mac and Fannie mae? Lotsa of places offering mortgages- if they fail, they fail

Sallie Mae? lots of places offering school loans- if they aren't creative enough to survive- oh well

Medicare? C'mon we have 1300 health insurance companies- we don't need it anymore.

Boyu am I glad you aren't in Wash. D.C.

So you said 80k and counting. Your cite says 35k will. That makes your claim a lie.

Well this will remain anunsubstantiated claim- all I can find online are may reports. I will see if I can find the Hannity show "The Valley that hope forgot" it reported the latest claims and it was at or near 80K.

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by nolidad

Well that was a may 9 report- as of last week it is now 80,000 as my reference said ir would climb to

And even if that's true, it was clearly contradicted by your own cite... making your posting of the false high number a lie.

No one said there wasn't But 80,000,000,000 a month are shut off from human use and flow direct to teh ocean.

... cite?

Delta smelt are found only in the Sacramento-San Joaquin Estuary"-http://www.delta.dfg.ca.gov/gallery/dsmelt.asp

Maybe in America it is found here- but it came from Asia.

Simply put, that's another lie. There are no Delta smelt in Asia.

May 9th report- if you wnt I will also get a sept update --sorry I know you love using the word lie- but this time its you not me.

Not only is it you. You just did it again.

Recall, your quote is "80,000 and counting". Now let's look at what you just cut-n-paste from your source:

"Representative Nunes says up to 80,000 jobs could be lost.

[nolidad]

Simply put, that's another lie. There are no Delta smelt in Asia.

Well I know you are all knowing and all powerful OH GREAT OZ. So let me see:

Should I believe Jerry Love cuz he says so- or should I believe the California Academy of Scineces Ichthyology dept.?????

Well despite the harm I can bring down on myself- I choose Ca. Academy when they document delta smelt in Asia. Sorry!

Not only is it you. You just did it again.

Recall, your quote is "80,000 and counting". Now let's look at what you just cut-n-paste from your source:

Yes that is the MAY number! But this is the end of September and the number has written as I told you. But that doen't matter. I made your day because I didn't cite all sources you were able to call me a liar so I know that made you happy. Glad to make your day!

[nolidad]

...

cite?

http://www.ourvalleywatercrisis.org/water.pdf

[JerryLove]

Originally Posted by Jerry

Delta smelt are found only in the Sacramento-San Joaquin Estuary"-http://www.delta.dfg.ca.gov/gallery/dsmelt.asp

Originally Posted by nolidad

Should I believe Jerry Love cuz he says so- or should I believe the California Academy of Scineces Ichthyology dept.?????

Actually, I provided a link to the state government of California saying so.

*edit* found your link.

http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/p...on?spcode=E070
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_smelt
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Spec...ry.php?ID=2696
http://data.gbif.org/species/13533447/

The list goes on.

Well despite the harm I can bring down on myself- I choose Ca. Academy when they document delta smelt in Asia. Sorry!

You are confusing it with this critter:
http://data.gbif.org/species/13533327/

Yes that is the MAY number! But this is the end of September and the number has written as I told you. But that doen't matter. I made your day because I didn't cite all sources you were able to call me a liar so I know that made you happy. Glad to make your day!

No. You did cite a source. And you quoted it. Then you claimed it said something other than what it actually said. *That* made you a liar.

After that, you didn't cite another source that showed that you were correct in your claim, though not your cite. That would have established you as simply having poorly stated your support. You would not have been a liar, you would not even have been wrong.

But from what I can see you are wrong; and from what I can see, you don't have a source (accurate or otherwise) that corroborates your claim.