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Unread 08-15-2009, 08:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by rfclef View Post
Fair enough... Sometimes things get lost in transmission over the net... I was just supporting that putting yourself out as a Christian band is not always about marketing... though I am sure sometimes it is...
Even if you're intention isn't purely marketing, if you're not trying to market yourself to a specific audience, why even mention that your band is Christian? Why not just play the venues you want to play at and make the music you want to make without labeling it?

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Unread 08-15-2009, 08:26 PM   #32
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Exactly. The act of labeling your band 'Christian,' is marketing.
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Unread 08-15-2009, 08:45 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Rainer. View Post
In a way, they also get payed to... Think about that one a bit.
So does your Pastor. And it's not wrong, and it's very Biblical.
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Unread 08-15-2009, 08:48 PM   #34
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So does your Pastor. And it's not wrong, and it's very Biblical.
Right. No one is saying that it's wrong, just that it is.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 12:41 AM   #35
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It's indisputable, though, that it has absolutely nothing to do with either copulation or defecation.
I'm not arguing that. I was wrong, it was a stupid thing to say.

However, I still think it means more than "we mess stuff up" because if they'd just written "We mess stuff up!", no-one would care. These words obviously do mean something worse than that or they wouldn't be bleeped out on TV and radio. Words mean what people take them to mean, and the very fact that society considers them "curse words" and treats them as something bad seems to imply that they're not words that should be said.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 08:42 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by crazymoose View Post
I'm not arguing that. I was wrong, it was a stupid thing to say.

However, I still think it means more than "we mess stuff up" because if they'd just written "We mess stuff up!", no-one would care. These words obviously do mean something worse than that or they wouldn't be bleeped out on TV and radio. Words mean what people take them to mean, and the very fact that society considers them "curse words" and treats them as something bad seems to imply that they're not words that should be said.
It's a different way of saying it, for sure, but that's still exactly what it means. And to a certain audience (presumably theirs), the way they chose to say it is probably neither offensive nor extreme.

And society considers a lot of things bad in certain places and times. I'm a guy; it'd be inappropriate for me to enter most restaurants without a shirt on, yet if I go to the beach (or even certain public parks) nobody would give it a second thought. Nudity is censored on TV as well, yet being naked is obviously not wrong, nor is seeing others naked in certain contexts. Things which society considers inappropriate in certain venues are not inherently wrong as a result.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 02:04 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by OiBoyz View Post
So does your Pastor. And it's not wrong, and it's very Biblical.
Nope, not wrong at all. I think my somewhat tacit point there was that CCM artists are being pointed out directly as showing their faith through music, while Christian artists not under the CCM label might also be doing so in a less, say, overt way. But who is to say that one is making "more Christian" music than another?
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Unread 08-16-2009, 10:39 PM   #38
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First I agree. Bands don't need to have explicitly Christian lyrics to be Christian. I was simply offended by the fact that they would use such language more than many of the secular bands I saw, put a large sign saying "We F--- S--- Up!" at their merch table. Think about it. What if they'd just written, "We have sex with feces!"? This is probably getting into the "Is swearing wrong?" topic, but assuming you believe swearing is wrong, I don't see how you couldn't question a complete lack of effort to keep their speech clean.

If you think swearing is fine, then I get why you wouldn't think that's a problem.
I'm a Christian, and I curse a LOT. It doesn't really make a difference to me.
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Unread 08-16-2009, 11:12 PM   #39
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Even if you're intention isn't purely marketing, if you're not trying to market yourself to a specific audience, why even mention that your band is Christian? Why not just play the venues you want to play at and make the music you want to make without labeling it?
I was thinking back up towards the beginning of the thread with the OP and where Thrash said

"There are definitely local bands in my area that either portray or hint at being Christian just so they can play in Christian venues."

I guess if telling people what we are and what we do is marketing then yeah, calling ourselves a "Christian rock band" is marketing. I was looking back at the negative connotations some were talking of toward the beginning of the thread. We don't call ourselves "CHristian" to get the corner on the church circuit or anything like that. Calling ourselves "Christian rock band" lets people know what to expect in our musical style and subject matter. We'll play most any venue: Coffee houses, ball games, flea markets... THe label is just a tag to get people started...

And it ain't because church gigs pay more (if that is even true)... we have made a few dollars, but not a lot. We did get the 3 book set of HEart of the Artist books, a knit hat and a smoothie from one church... But we don't want to NOT play somewhere because they can't pay... When we play, we let the church bless us as the Lord leads 'em... Sometimes we get a little, sometimes nada but the blessing of making music for Him, and that is pretty good pay...
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Unread 11-02-2009, 07:05 PM   #40
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Christian" Bands Not Walking The Walk

Swearing to get crowd going shows immaturity as Christians and a bad witness with no sanctification from the world. Performers as role models are leaders and should aspire to be Godly role models or find another line of work. If they don't have the sensitivity to know that their bad behavior will influence others NOT to be holy and maybe not to really seek God then they should refrain from public appearances until they grow up spiritually or drop the pretense they are a "Christian" band. God has no joy in casual Christians.

Using our Lord's name in vain is blasphemy and shows that inside there is an uncaring, unregenerate heart not just a bad habit, and very likely, unless improvement is seen in their "rap" they may well not be Christian at all.

GET THIS FOLKS we are NOT supposed to JUDGE and usurp God's role
BUT as NOT lazy Christ followers
we are absolutely supposed TO DISCERN and act on that.
The world would say it is all judging but their eyes have been darkened.

We have a duty, and yes we are our brother's keeper, if they are brothers in the Lord, to call them on their behavior and turn them from it, in love. Don't be flippant about this, gossiping about them doesn't cut it.

So, you who question their actions and have heard their pronouncements, get on their web site or whatever and suck it up and get bold about this to them lest anyone perish for YOUR lack of action. If you know about it, then it may be your cross to bear, you gonna do something about it or drop it? God uses the weak often to teach the strong and is no respecter of persons so don't worry.

YOU are going to be held responsible for that which you could have done and didn't as well for every word you have said. Saved by grace, yes priceless - rewards in heaven, based on how you've put faith to work,
ah maybe not so fast dudes.

No pride in any authorship here, hopefully it points to the Lord and is backed with Scripture, if you think not prove with the Word me wrong, so this is not my deal.
If anyone thinks this note might help someone see their responsibility more clearly then pass it on.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 07:55 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyous Bard View Post
Christian" Bands Not Walking The Walk

Swearing to get crowd going shows immaturity as Christians and a bad witness with no sanctification from the world.
Show this in scripture.

Quote:
Performers as role models are leaders and should aspire to be Godly role models or find another line of work.
Now, about that. Is this biblical? Where are entertainers defined as leaders. This is in itself a dangerous and silly idea.

Quote:
If they don't have the sensitivity to know that their bad behavior will influence others NOT to be holy and maybe not to really seek God then they should refrain from public appearances until they grow up spiritually or drop the pretense they are a "Christian" band. God has no joy in casual Christians.
Wow, loving. So far you have mentioned the use of taboo words. Scripture does not condemn that. Scripture does condemn cursing which is very, very different than our society's view of cussing. Is there some actually biblical bad behavior you want to light in on?

Secondarily to this, you address the character of people's hearts as if you can see what it is. I know some very good and godly Christians whose lives are worthy of emulation who cuss.

Quote:
Using our Lord's name in vain is blasphemy and shows that inside there is an uncaring, unregenerate heart not just a bad habit, and very likely, unless improvement is seen in their "rap" they may well not be Christian at all.
So if someone uses the Lord's name in vain, you condemn them to hell? Funny, that sounds very similar to damning them, as in cursing them.

Quote:
GET THIS FOLKS we are NOT supposed to JUDGE and usurp God's role
You are doing that.

Although believers are to judge one another according to scripture, but not as to their salvation, which you are doing.

I could go on, but this post is self-righteous and oozes an attitude that is condemning, and assumes it is God himself.
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Unread 11-03-2009, 04:14 AM   #42
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Hey Bill,

You're joking right? Why don't YOU use Scripture to take apart what I said as I challenged anyone to do in the post? Your flippant, vitriolic, legalistic response shows a lack of Christian love which is the spirit in which my post should have been received.

But it was also not meant to pussyfoot around the issues when good men turn into gossips when they see others in error instead of being one who would try and turn a brother around. Who on this forum has done that? I remind them they should, as ones having knowledge of it and you flame me for being indelicate?

Darn good thing you were not born in the first century where is your foundation man?

Are you going to defend coarse speech, do that in Scripture, go ahead show me where that is, and how edifying? I can show you well what I wrote is backed in the Word, you don't seem to have ears to hear it.
Prove to me your points.

Point 1. My statement is so self evident that I'm shocked you would even bring it up unless you have no knowledge of the Word and words swearing, immaturity, Christian, bad witness and sanctification.

Point 2 Performers "lead" the crowd, not in the same sense of a Pastor per se, but lead they do and you and everyone reading this forum know it. Even if you've written songs, you lead and the reader follows. There is responsibility there and no neutral ground. "Christian" performers are supposed to lead towards Christ.
Otherwise drop the pretense of being "Christian".

Darn right being a role model is dangerous, which is why anyone who presumes to be a "Christian" band better act like it. You might know that many children, youth, and elders relate to and near idolize certain bands. They are role models whether you like it or not. No they should not be more important a role model than their parents but it does happen. Even if a minor role model, are you saying that the bands are let off the hook from responsibility for their actions.? Don't think so but I'd love to hear you expound a defense of that, scripturally. Something a little more than "silly" would be in order here.

Think about it in terms of do unto others and tell me, in all seriousness, that you think a band purporting to be "Christian" and acting like the world is walking the walk.
And you have no problem if they influence youth for ill?

Point 3 Tough love, are you one to turn a blind eye so as just to "not offend" anyone?
What is wrong with the statement that by taking the label "Christian" which has responsibilities to God and man above the norm, and by NOT living up to them they should refrain until they are ready or not deceive and cause others to stumble; or lose the "Christian" appellation if they have no intention of living up to it?

Words mean things, do I really have to remind a lawyer (which you are so proud to show us and which means nothing relevant on a Christian music forum) of that?
You must think then that the band can't cause ones they lead in concert to stumble because they have no responsibility? Enlighten me on why I am wrong to draw that conclusion about what you are saying.

We know them by their fruits and out of the heart the mouth speaks. A third grader would know the relevance of those references or should. Scripture condemns any speech not edifying you should be able to find if you choose to look for the Chapter and Verse on that one. I'll make the readers look it up if they follow along, maybe it will stick.

Ask your friends who cuss whether that is a proud trait of theirs, whether if a stranger may see them cuss they might not be either looked on as a pagan or worse a hypocritical Christian and tell me in all honesty that you think that speech is defensible in any way other than to be looked on as part of our natural man to be killed off, not glorified for shock value or to fit in or to be like the world which we most certainly were called out of. They should be being convicted by the Holy Spirit of trash talking, that is not legalism, it is what He does. Some have made their peace with the world and no longer strive to be Christ-like, their free choice but not His will.
You infer the world is just a fine yardstick. Please defend that in Scripture.

I'm not saying your friends aren't hail fellows well met and brothers in the Lord but if they cuss like the world they have a speech problem. Bridling of the tongue is not easy but a mark we should strive for as a maturing Christian and not accept less. Cut slack as a work in progress sure if where one is in the walk but not applaud.

If they curse using the name of the Lord in vain and do it habitually then what are we to make of that?
Where is the new man, where is the common decency? My point is act like a Christian if you call yourself one, especially one who has a high profile. If you are teaching the audience what a "Christian" artist should be like and having others who are Christians, like those on this forum note the hypocrisy, how much more so will the worldly see no light in them?
So I say if they either, are not Christians or can't control themselves and comport with some Biblical norms as Christians, which would be crucial for their witness, then they should market themselves as a secular band and do less damage.
You would have them put forth a false or damaging witness, and this draws people to Christ and builds up the Body exactly how?

You would have them put forth no witness? I'm not speaking necessarily of altar calls at concerts, but not a bad thing, you know well that no "Christian" artist can put forth no witness, they do as soon as they take up the mantle and put themselves out in the world as Christ followers. The rub and hypocrisy comes when they don't even try to live up to the holy name by being holy themselves for whatever reason.

Yes we can absolutely see glimpses of what is in a mans heart, scripture clearly tells us that out of the heart a man speaks. We don't see it all, and not enough to judge which we shouldn't do anyway, only God does.

I'm in your car and you initially appear as an otherwise normal person but is tailgating and you are screaming at the guy in front to move and cursing I may not come to the conclusion that you are not a Christian on that one instance, maybe your dog died or worse, but I might well accurately conclude you have an anger problem, a filthy mouth, the inability to control oneself, and not be stable enough to be a Youth Minister at church, or maybe not even an entertainer worthy of the name Christian lest you should make others fall due to your weakness. If you revel in your anger and boast of it then I say you have deeper problems, maybe still not lacking salvation but certainly any mature, grounded relationship with the Lord evidenced by your self control.

The issue is responsibility that bands have and the accountability, not to me but to God that He clearly reminds us of in His Word. Your take seems to be bands have no responsibility for what they do, this is frankly a cop out. Worse, that opinion of yours, if I've stated it correctly, as I've reread your comment, as one who is of some import on this forum judging from the number of posts (sorry was I using judgement there?)
to rip me a new one calling me judgmental for reminding them that hypocrisy is a bad thing.
To disavow having bands take responsibility for what they do, as stated in the context of these posts,
you Sir mislead others and will have to bear that burden.

You may struggle with your speech, take a hammer to my knee and I might cuss, but if you do so as a habit without remorse, curse and take the Lord's name in vain, then chances you are a Christian are remote.
The fruit is evil, where is the tree? There are plenty of Scripture references to asking whether it is possible to have both pure and foul water from the same well or similar questions. The answer is NO btw.

Point 4 I am not judging or cursing but discerning as we are to do. I'll spell it out, if your "rap" is blasphemous and you make no effort to change then you don't love the Lord. PERIOD. A true Christian cannot continue to utter curses to His Lord without remorse, for whatever reason, in context, the band wants to "connect" to the crowd or the Agent said it would be good to spice things up, whatever.

I am not talking about, and made that clear, of someone who occasionally curses but struggles with that part of their flesh. If cursing God is part of your "rap", which would be pre-meditated, know that it has no part of anything Christian, so don't call yourself a "Christian" band. And like the rest of us better work out your salvation with lots of fear and trembling.

The thought of a band renouncing or changing its "Christian" moniker seems anathema to you. What about those they mislead? Yeah that the artist answers to God for ultimately, but we hold our brothers and the imposters accountable, here, now, or we should. I argue we should, show me in Scripture where we should not correct our stray brothers or fight evil.

My observation and discernment of the one used in this example of one cursing our Lord is not me being funny in the least, Christ changes people. If especially that behavior would not change then yes that person is as much toast as other remorseless unregenerate drunkards, adulterers, etc... Hint Read Corinthians.
God is love but also He is just and has no and can have no relationship until the rebel lays down their arms.

Cursing God is not surrender. We know what the Bible says on this. You understand that if you are saved.
There are those who would deny it and only think that God would save everyone, do you think that way?
If not then why deny the responsibility people, (bands) have for their actions?
This is an honest question because I can't see where you are coming from. You act as if there is nothing a Christian can criticize without being "judgmental". That is flat wrong. Whether I'm pc or not I could care less.

Point 5 I am hardly judging, show me where in Scripture it says we are not to discern and correct those in error, in love, or intercede for or witness to the lost? Show me where it is not every Christians responsibility to do this?
Show me where it is said in Scripture that we will NOT be judged in Heaven for our rewards based on
the works we do with our faith. Is he that wins souls NOT wise?

I am not dripping with self-righteousness but my righteous anger burns, as yours should, at those who do nothing and tolerate and make accommodation for sin, by your defense of sin apparently they have you in their number.

I was simply reminding the posters who see sin, and unlike you seem discern what it is, (cheap shot, maybe - prove you don't deserve it) can and should and really have duty to be bold and do something about it even if they are too timid to confront an artist or band they like and call them on their behavior.
Don't assume someone from the entourage will.

We are to be judged also for the light we have. If you know of sin; bearing false witness and cursing is certainly that, as is unclean speech, what should you do, at the very least pray but you shouldn't be a gossip.
You might be of a mind to think well that behavior problem, sin, is between them and their pastor what do we have to do with it? a) good chance the pastor may not have been at the concert, b) are we not our brothers keeper? What does that mean should we just watch them lead others astray by compromising with the world?

My post was not condemning in the least but shows your lack of knowledge and discernment of the Scriptures. It was a call to man up in the face of sin and not continue to gossip with no Christ-centered action behind it. Were you offended by my statement that God takes no pleasure in casual Christians?
It seems you were.
I didn't write that or make that up but some need to be reminded of it, many in fact, according to the Word.
I don't know is it that you like lukewarm water?
I encourage readers to be bold against sin and take action, IN LOVE (or did you forget that part),
you flame me for being judgmental.

Show how Chapter and Verse that I did not speak truth.
Maybe you are shocked at my boldness, having the temerity to post here, perhaps you need to be.
How dare you for being that comfortable with sin!

Reminding one, as occasion arises, what is actually in the Scriptures from time to time and our responsibility to follow them and to not be slack is not a bad thing.

That you found this post to be so inflammatory and a rock of offense says much more about where you are with Christ than me. I trust the Lord will open your eyes.

I trust also we will both keep each other in our prayers.

A note to any aspiring "Christian" band or artist out there.
Just because you can say you are a "Christian" doesn't mean you should.
Be ready to walk the walk by trying your best before the Lord to be a true holy witness for Christ or don't take that path.
Don't make the decision lightly because of your agent, the money or anything else.

You may be a Christian, great brother or sister, but if you can't or won't act like one then spare us and yourselves the pain of eventually your hypocrisy being dealt with by the Lord in a most public way.
You do damage along the way and the end game of compromise with the world is
the tragedy of bruising His witness and trashing yours.
If you are sincere and have the chops go for it then Godspeed but woe to you otherwise.

Remember this He'd rather not have to lift you up after you crash and burn as Plan A.
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Unread 11-03-2009, 05:18 AM   #43
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Ok, I got as far as you calling Bill legalistic for simply asking you for Scripture, which as far as I can tell you did not provide. (You realize that post was 2544 words long and you didn't provide even ONE Scripture that I can see? No, I didn't count, I let my computer count it for me.)

The rest was just blah blah judge criticize, and condemn. And skimming, I honestly didn't see Scripture. At all.

I've got a gripe that I've been thinking about all day, and it was sparked by some of the "loving" posts I've read on CGR lately. I realize that some of what I've seen (especially in CPF) is long standing in-jokes that I'm not a party to. And that's ok, but from the outside looking in, it's very disturbing to see such abrasive things said amongst one another. Even in jest.

I keep thinking about a couple of Scriptures: John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. And Rom. 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

I'm not suggesting that we don't use discernment, or that we aren't called to correct a brother or sister if they are in error. But where's the love? Anyone remember the guy last week in the Theology forum who was willing to dismiss every other Christian in his home town as heretics? Without ever meeting them?

I don't understand that attitude. And I see it everywhere. I think it must really break His heart to see His kids tear and bite at each other.
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Unread 11-03-2009, 10:18 AM   #44
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Joyous Bard,

In a discussion, the burden of proof is on the person that makes an assertion. It is not Bill's responsibility (or anyone else's) to find Scripture that refutes what you are saying. As the person making an assertion, it is your job to support your own position. Given that you are saying that Scripture supports your position, it is your responsibility to show where your position is supported in Scripture.
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Unread 11-03-2009, 10:53 AM   #45
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Hey Bill,

You're joking right? Why don't YOU use Scripture to take apart what I said as I challenged anyone to do in the post? Your flippant, vitriolic, legalistic response shows a lack of Christian love which is the spirit in which my post should have been received.
No, it didn't. I merely pointed out that biblically, your post had no merit. I cannot point to the absence of scriptures to make a case, but when you claim God said something, he better have actually said it. Otherwise, you are a false prophet. (A prophet claims to speak for God, and one who speaks for God falsely, is a false prophet.)

Nowhere in scripture does it give a list of naughty words, and the Apostle Paul who, said to follow him, as he followed Christ, in scripture, used the equivalent word to sh*t to describe his accomplishments. It ain't a polite word.

My post was not vitriol. You condemned men to hell, based on your legalism. If that is not legalism, nothing is.

Quote:
But it was also not meant to pussyfoot around the issues when good men turn into gossips when they see others in error instead of being one who would try and turn a brother around. Who on this forum has done that? I remind them they should, as ones having knowledge of it and you flame me for being indelicate?
3 things.

1) Said members of the bands aforementioned are not on this board, thus you were not trying to turn them around. You were, however, being a gossip about people you do not know, speaking to the eternal state of souls of men you do not know. You did not remind anyone of anything. You spoke words to those who saw an event, condemning others in the event.
2) Numerous times I actually take those in error, such as yourself, and try to turn a brother around. Whether it be personal purity in life and relationship, or whether they are attacking brothers, condemning them to hell.
3) I didn't flame you. I asked for scripture, because you were saying things God has not said, claiming to speak for God.

As to the rest of this post, if your current attitude continues, I will ban you. This is not an idle threat, but we cannot have someone on the board so lacking in Christlike love and grace in their speech. Which is ironic in a sad sort of way.
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